Tactica Daemonica - 6th Ed

[bebe]

So reading through the thread I'm trying to get a sense aof how a FMC Tzeentch prince strikes and enters play. As it stands I'm assuming the consensus is:

1. We can swoop when entering play
2. Soul devourer power maul is +2 strength with ID bonus.
3. Vector strike is not modified so then S6. Neither a power maul nor unholy might alter this.

Have I got this correct?

[Infidel]

So reading through the thread I'm trying to get a sense aof how a FMC Tzeentch prince strikes and enters paly. As it stands I'm assuming the consensus is:

1. We can swoop when entering play
2. Soul devourer power maul is +2 strength with ID bonus.
3. Vector strike is not modified so then S6. Neither a power maul nor unholy might alter this.

Have I got this correct?

#1 Yes. Some silly rule-lawyering says no though (the same type that prevents a swooping flyer from DSing)
#2 No. At best it's waiting FAQ, but all points to SD being an unusual power weapon
#3 Unholy might modifies the profile value in the same way that MoN gives you +1 toughness in your profile. Again, awaiting FAQ but I personally lean towards yes - a BT with Unholy Might will vector strike at S8.

[bebe]

hmm ...
The gift Soul Devourer states: " The Daemon counts as armed with a power weapon. In addition, if a model suffers and unsaved wounds from the Daemon's close combat attacks, it must......." so soul devourer is not an unusual power weapon and should benefit from the types of power weapons.

So with a maul a DP should get s8-9 at I with ap 2 and the concussive special rule. Nort that I want my Weaver or Tzeentch DPs necessarily in combat.

I'm on the fence with Unholy Might but I think it is a modification even if it is written as modify the profile.

We need more FaQs.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

That's pretty funny, but try as I might, I can't find a gap in the rules-logic that lets it work. Hell, the Lord of Change model even comes with a staff!

[youngsamwise]

That's pretty funny, but try as I might, I can't find a gap in the rules-logic that lets it work. Hell, the Lord of Change model even comes with a staff!

It's not really a gap, it's just like reading a sentence missing a comma and the meaning being entirely different. Read Soul Devourer as doing one of the two things:

Daemonic Gift: Soul Devourer
1. Counts as a power weapon
-----1a. The power weapon can ID things

or

Daemonic Gift: Soul Devourer
1. Confers to the daemon a power weapon
2. Confers to the daemon the abilty to ID things

If it's the former, the power weapon has additional rules and qualifies as an unusual power weapon.
If it's the latter, the power weapon does not have additional rules (the gift has two rules) and therefore the power weapon can be a power maul.

It all comes down to where you place the "In addition..." Is it in addition to the first gift (power weapon) or is it an additional propery of power weapon? Strictly going RAW, I would interpert as Soul Devourer is not the name of the weapon, it's the name of the Daemonic Gift. The gift has an additional ability, the power weapon does not.

Oh, and remember, Soul Devourer is just like having a force weapon, so your opponent will still get FNP from it!

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I don't think it's actually unclear how the "In addition..." applies, since the second part of the power specifies that it applies to any close combat attacks made by the daemon, which is as opposed to applying to the power weapon itself. If the daemon specifically does not use the power weapon, the second ability would still work, so it isn't really be a property of the power weapon, even if that's how the text read, which it doesn't.

[IcedAnimals]

While the rules debate on soul devourer is interesting. I have a question pertaining to tactics and not rules. Are heralds worth sticking in our troops now for challenges. For example. I am currently running a unit of 20 daemonettes. Now that Pavane no longer prevents our fleet bonus, a herald can hit the unit they are going to charge and then line them up for the most optimal positioning. Make sure those special weapons are the first models to die etc. However a herald is a t3 model with only 2 wounds and a 5+ save. So seems REALLY easy to challenge snipe. Yes im ini 7, but most likely the herald is only going to get 1 rending attack off. While I can use TG to lower my opponents attacks by 1, and my WS means i will usually only be hit on 4s. I just see the herald being a 100 point sink to use pavane.

The other option is the masque. For the same points. She is still 2 wounds, but gets a 3+ invuln instead of the 5+. Loses 1 str, and doesn't remove an attack from the opponent. 3 pavanes is nice but you can't pavane the same unit more than once. Daemonettes don't want to be multi charging, so trying to position opponents for multi charges doesn't seem worth it. We aren't killy enough in close combat when our main form of damage comes from the number of attacks we throw out. And losing the bonus for charging hits our biggest str.

Neither of them seem like decent options. And if you are paying the 50 points for a herald you really should be paying the 20 extra for pavane now that it is so good. So a "barebones" herald seems like a waste. So of the 3 options the herald I was most leaning toward has the following. UM, Musk, Pavane, TG. If I was to drop anything I suppose it would be the UM for 10 points. But giving an entire unit of daemonettes H&R seems really good, pavane is amazing, and TG helps a lot with challenges.

Oh and I suppose I do have a rules question as well while we are on the subject. If I have a model with TG and she is in base contact with an enemy character issuing a challenge. Can I lower his attacks by 1 and then have a different character in my unit accept the challenge?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Remember that you can always refuse the challenge; all you lose are the herald's attacks and T-gaze. At least a herald, unlike Masque, can join a unit... And I agree that adding Pavane and Musk to a unit of Daemonettes is pretty good (though it might be better yet on Seekers!).

As to your rules question, Transfixing Gaze has been FAQ'd to occur after challenges have been issued and accepted (or refused). Once the challenge has begun, the challengers are only B2B with each other, regardless of physical position.

[IcedAnimals]

Ah I totally spaced that the masque can't join a unit. And yeah a herald in a unit of seekers sounds really good. I just haven't decided if its better to have one in there or not. I mean if I am just going to decline the challenge I might as well not have the character in the unit. Especially when said characters are costing around 100 points. I could throw that hundred points at a KoS instead.

[bebe]

Double post. Sry.

[bebe]

Seekers just don't do anything for me. I like deamonettes but I would still play horrors first and use points on fiends if I want cc and anti-tank. Deamonettes need to be in larger squads as they go down quickly. They are very good now but the daemon codex's strengths are not troops. And they can take TG without a herald. The herald is for H+R.
My take on 6ed is that horrors at least have some AT. I think the best options still are:
HQs:
Fateweaver/LoC
Bloodthirster
Tzeentch Herald
Elites:
Fiends only
Troops:
your choice really - they all have pros and cons. Horrors for AT, Deamonettes for rending cc, Bearers for toughness and cost.
Fast Attack:
If pressed then Screamers. Fiends are simply better than Seekers.
Heavy:
Flying DPs
Now this is just my take after a few games and I'm sure I'll be changing and editing these opinions. As of now until 1750 I'll use 4 FMCs. From 1750 to 1850 I'll use four or five (depends on how many fiends I want and how many troops) and at 2000 definitely five. At 1500 I've been plying this:

Fateweaver. 333
Bloodthirster. Might. Deathstrike. Blessing. 295
6 Fiends, Might 190
2x 5 Plaguebearers. 150
6 Horrors. Bolt. Changeling. 119
2 Daemon Prince. MoT. Flight. Soul Devourer. Breath. 410

Flying Circus 6ed 1500 list

The major weakness is against parking lot IG and it can be tricky keeping your troops around. I'm probably a holdout using bearers. Horrors might be best but I have the bearers modeled from my old list. And I don't mind the extra horror. Now what I do not like at this point are CSM allies. If I allied it would be with IG. A few veteran squads with tri plasma in vendettas and cheap HQ would be a good start. So going to 2000 you have choices. These would be a few examples ...

Pure Daemons --
6 fiends might 190
5 Horrors. Bolt 95
DP MoT. Flight. Soul Devourer. Breath. 205

IG Allies --
Command Squad. 4 Plasma. Chimera 165
Veteran Squad. Three Plasma, Vendetta 220
Aegis Defense Line. Autocannons. 100

I'll need to test a lot more to decide how I like my 2000 list.

[IcedAnimals]

So you like daemonettes but for 3 points more per model you don't like being upgraded to cavalry and gaining an extra attack? They are basically super daemonettes. Unless you mean you like daemonettes because you HAVE to take them. But any point spent on a seeker can instead be spent on fiends. Also for elites you are completely forgetting bloodcrushers. Especially in a fateweaver list, I don't think ive ever seen someone run fiends instead of crushers.

Got my first daemons 2k point game in today. I had to make up a list on the spot so I went with the quickest and easiest thing I could think of.

4x KoS 4x5 daemonettes 5x6 fiends. had 20 points left, gave 2 keepers TG. I lost but it was a lot of fun.

[Walls]

How exactly are people actually winning games with just 2 troops? I do truly think that once real 6th ed mentality and playing kicks in, you'll see the need for more troops. Our big stuff is killy, yes, but very few in number and a good turn of shooting will take them off the table. Even one killer unit gone is a big dent.

[Infidel]

How exactly are people actually winning games with just 2 troops? I do truly think that once real 6th ed mentality and playing kicks in, you'll see the need for more troops. Our big stuff is killy, yes, but very few in number and a good turn of shooting will take them off the table. Even one killer unit gone is a big dent.

We'll have to see but I think this "6th ed" thing isn't much to worry about.

• Secondary objectives. Aiming to be killy is often good enough to score quite a few of the seconday objectives. First Blood and Line Breaker are more or less a given for Daemon armies aiming to field large, durable and killy units.
• The changes to scoring - you must disembark to score, meaning the assault elements can get a hold of scorers easier.
• Big guns never tire has the potential to turn our DPs into scoring units
• Most of our stuff can deny
• Each unit can only claim one objective

With the exception of the relic game type, where you actually need something reasonably survivable to transport the relic, I just don't see the lack of troops being a big deal. We managed it back then and not much has changed. Our troops are still shat in comparison to pretty much everybody else, worse now, really, since practically everyone can overwatch.

The key to winning with small number of troops is to turn the typical 3-2 objective win to something like 1-0 objective win, where you hold one and deny the enemy of theirs. Even if we are to lose out on some of the objectives, the secondary objectives give us a chance to break even or even come out ahead.

[Mushkilla]

I have a question pertaining to tactics and not rules. Are heralds worth sticking in our troops now for challenges. For example. I am currently running a unit of 20 daemonettes. Now that Pavane no longer prevents our fleet bonus, a herald can hit the unit they are going to charge and then line them up for the most optimal positioning

I run Heralds with my daemonettes because it gives them Hit and Run (thanks to musk) which makes them far more mobile and unpredictable.

While pavane is ok on heralds at BS3 it's not great, I prefer running a herald with might, Transfixing and Musk. Because they are survivable in challenges thanks to the 5++, eternal warrior and transfixing gaze (gaze is amazing). Also they are a huge perceived threat as they have rending, so your opponent will find them scary just because of the potential to ignore armour. Anything I know I can't beat I just refuse the challenge.

So you like daemonettes but for 3 points more per model you don't like being upgraded to cavalry and gaining an extra attack? They are basically super daemonettes.

Who treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, are just as squishy and are not scoring.

4x KoS 4x5 daemonettes 5x6 fiends. had 20 points left, gave 2 keepers TG. I lost but it was a lot of fun.

Keepers without Musk(Hit and Run) what is this madness? Hit and Run is the best thing on MC as it stops them getting tied down by sacrificial units and tar-pits, not to mention the threat range it gives them.

On a different note, now that "no retreat" is gone nurglings are an amazingly cheap tar-pit, they are also great and charging a unit to tank overwatch before your squishy units charge.

The other day I charged a Mob of 30 shoota boys with my nurglings before following up with my large squad of daemonettes, worked a treat. They are just so useful for tying stuff down and generally being annoying.

[swordhawk]

So reading through the thread I'm trying to get a sense aof how a FMC Tzeentch prince strikes and enters play. As it stands I'm assuming the consensus is:*

1. We can swoop when entering play
2. Soul devourer power maul is +2 strength with ID bonus.*
3. Vector strike is not modified so then S6. Neither a power maul nor unholy might alter this.

Have I got this correct?

1: Swooping when entering play
No. RAW is quite clear, to quote a previous post:

As it stands you can't deepstrike in swoop mode on the turn you arrive.

...as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode. (p49)
If a flying monstrous creature is swooping, it must move at least 12" (p49)
In Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further.(p36)

The same would go for flyers in zooming mode, which is probably why neither Fliers or FMC have the Deep Strike special rule by default - if non-Daemonic Fliers and FMC are in reserve, they come zooming/swooping in from the rear.

2: Soul Devourer
The first two sentences of the description is "The Daemon can reach into an enemy's body, wrench out its soul and devour it. The Daemon counts as being armed with a power weapon." So, the ID ability clearly belongs to the Daemon and not the weapon - it is not a power weapon "with one or more unique rules", and I would even go so far as to say it is not a separate power weapon at all, but a innate ability with the Daemon. However, that also means that the LoC does not get +2 S and Concussive; since according to this line of thought LoC is not armed with a Power Weapon, the type of equipment on the model has no impact on the game mechanics.

If we instead chose to follow the reverse approach (the wrong one, in my opinion), with the power belonging to the weapon, it would fall into the category "unusual power weapon".

In either case, a LoC should be attacking with S6 AP3, with no modifications from the weapon carried by the model.

3: Unholy Might
The section on Modifiers (page 2) reads: "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively (...)", the section on Special Rules (page 32) reads "Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant entry in its codex. (...)". The description of Unholy Might reads "The Daemon has been granted exceptional strength, a true champion among its peers. The model has +1 Strength on its profile". Vector Strike reads "(...) resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. (...)".

Since Unholy Might is a special rule, it is a modifier, and strict rules lawyering dictates it should be ignored when resolving Vector Strike. However, I don't think this is RAI, and also that it should be be FAQ'ed to be included.

[Infidel]

1: Swooping when entering play
No. RAW is quite clear, to quote a previous post:

Which is to say that RAW is not clear at all.

The post you quoted very convinenetly ignored that part where it says non-vehicles entering via DS count as having moved when they enter play. Howerver, there is zero clarification as to how far they count as having moved. There is no rule or precedent that helps resolve this even slightly.

[Mushkilla]

Here is a fun one.

Herald of Nurgle + nurglings = FNP nurglings! I tried this out in a game the other day, they can't run which is annoying however they are a ridiculous tar-pit.

Which is to say that RAW is not clear at all.

The post you quoted very convinenetly ignored that part where it says non-vehicles entering via DS count as having moved when they enter play. Howerver, there is zero clarification as to how far they count as having moved. There is no rule or precedent that helps resolve this even slightly.

I think the closest thing we have to show that it swoop will be FAQed to work when deepstriking is that jump infantry count as having used their jump backs when deepstriking. Fingers crossed.

[Memnon]

2: Soul Devourer
The first two sentences of the description is "The Daemon can reach into an enemy's body, wrench out its soul and devour it. The Daemon counts as being armed with a power weapon." So, the ID ability clearly belongs to the Daemon and not the weapon - it is not a power weapon "with one or more unique rules", and I would even go so far as to say it is not a separate power weapon at all, but a innate ability with the Daemon. However, that also means that the LoC does not get +2 S and Concussive; since according to this line of thought LoC is not armed with a Power Weapon, the type of equipment on the model has no impact on the game mechanics.

If we instead chose to follow the reverse approach (the wrong one, in my opinion), with the power belonging to the weapon, it would fall into the category "unusual power weapon".

Just to point out that if the description says "Equipped with a Power Weapon" then by 6th edition Rules it follows the new Power Weapon rules (including the "look at the model rule"). In 5th, Having a power weapon had no benefit to MC's as they already ignored armour saves but it allowed Tzeentch Heralds to. Presumably then the Soul Devourer gift does give a Power Weapon of choice to its owner and its description suggests the Daemon is capable of seperately causing ID

Here is a fun one.

Herald of Nurgle + nurglings = FNP nurglings! I tried this out in a game the other day, they can't run which is annoying however they are a ridiculous tar-pit.

Thats pretty cool (considering I've just painted up a Nurgle Herald!), so are Independent Characters now allowed to join swarms? No rulebook to hand but nice little change if so!

Memnon

[swordhawk]

Which is to say that RAW is not clear at all.

The post you quoted very convinenetly ignored that part where it says non-vehicles entering via DS count as having moved when they enter play. Howerver, there is zero clarification as to how far they count as having moved. There is no rule or precedent that helps resolve this even slightly.

I "conveniently ignored" that part as it has no bearing on my line of arguments. Arriving by deep strike means the unit doesn't move in the movement phase, but count as having moved (presumably due to disorientation from the deep strike). The "obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase" rule is there for the purpose of the following Shooting phase.

Also, other rules regarding deep strike and "count as having moved" are aimed towards maximum penalizing the deep striking unit ("This can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full ballistic skill").

I think the closest thing we have to show that it swoop will be FAQed to work when deepstriking is that jump infantry count as having used their jump backs when deepstriking. Fingers crossed.

Not likely, considering that jump units enter play descending from above, but Daemons arrive by warp rift, which is basically similar to teleporting onto the battlefield (hence, in CSM codex, Terminators, Obliterators and Lesser Daemons can benefit from an Icon, while units using jump packs or other means of transport cannot).

Just to point out that if the description says "Equipped with a Power Weapon" then by 6th edition Rules it follows the new Power Weapon rules (including the "look at the model rule"). In 5th, Having a power weapon had no benefit to MC's as they already ignored armour saves but it allowed Tzeentch Heralds to. Presumably then the Soul Devourer gift does give a Power Weapon of choice to its owner and its description suggests the Daemon is capable of seperately causing ID

Damn, you're right - I forgot to take that detail into account.