40K's rules are awful. If you don't care about the "fluff" but like wargames, why on earth don't you play a good one? As it is, you're spending an awful lot of time and money on something you could get an infinitely better version of elsewhere. That's just barking mad.
Last edited by Bubble Ghost; 02-07-2012 at 19:53.
Idiots... nothing can live forever.
As far as the Black Dragons, well, what do we know about them? That they have weird bone protrusions as a result of mutation? That doesn't prevent them from being a Codex Chapter. I don't think you really understand what a Codex Chapter is. It isn't a Chapter that uses Codex: Space Marines to the letter, lol. Those are the game rules. In the fluff, a Codex Chapter just adheres to the majority of the Codex's tenets on recruitment, training, heraldry, and organization. It has nothing to do with certain peculiarities of gene seed or preference in tactics. The Codex isn't a book of hard and inflexible rules. The Space Wolves and Black Templars are non-Codex because they refute nearly all the organizational tenets, and from all appearances all of the training and recruitment guidelines too. The White Scars are a Codex Chapter, even though they like bikes and dislike dreadnoughts.
There's always a been a decent attempt made by the designers to make the universe, characters and events interesting. Most players can point to a moment that caught their interest or inspired their armies. The reason I'm building a Night Lords warband is that the Night Lords books by Dembski-Bowden (and Lord of Night helped too) add such great character to the CSM. Saying the fluff is the an afterthought ignores the fact that the background informs miniature design and army layout, and even in this case, who armies can ally with.
It's fine if you don't like it; and I'm not really disagreeing that a lot of it isn't all that good (The Blood Angels 'saga' and Last Chancers come to mind as examples as the worst to come out). But it still informs a lot of the aesthetic and army design; saying otherwise is silly. The background is a part of the game, just as much as the rules.
They accomplished precisely 0 goals.
The table is idiotic from a fluff standpoint. Look at all the threads about Black Templars allying with Eldar, or Tau with Space Marines. The table fails entirely from a fluff point of view.
The table is equally idiotic from a gameplay point of view. It's totally unbalanced, and provides huge benefits for some races (right now, for armies without access to psychic defence, any army that can ally with Eldar), and huge drawbacks for others (particularly Tyranids). The table fails entirely from a gameplay point of view.
It needs to be done away with entirely, for the good of the background and for the good of the game.
I propose that we, as gamers, tell GW where to shove their stupid allies matrix. I don't want to see a single tournament using it, I don't want to read battle reports where players adopt it.
Can we do that?
Last edited by EDMM; 04-07-2012 at 21:20.
Why the hell did they think it was appropriate to make Edlar & DEldar bosson buddies? From the fluff the two hate each other, it's even a required part of Incubi training not just to kill an aspect warrior, but to take posession of his/her soul. The DE codex mentions somewhere that CWE prisoners are considered the most sought after slaves in all of Commoragh. The fluff points to a major grudge match between the two, but apparently the new allies chart reveals that Yrellian and Vect take tea together an explain pleasantries once a week wtf?
Imp Guard options should be pretty broad, not alliable with chaos of any sort, Battle brothers with sisters and marines is ok. Never Orks though, that was dumb, although not as dumb as space marines with Orks. Why the hell did they let IG ally with chaos, especially daemons, I suppose they are supposed to represent traitor guard right?
Dark Eldar should not have got any kind of alliance with daemons, a DEldar/Daemonette alliance is maybe one of the most fluff-murdering combinations they could have come up with.
Here is roughly what I would have expected from an allied table, maybe a w tweaks he and there
Space marines (inc DA, BA, SW & BT)
battle brothers; sisters & guard,
convenience; Eldar, Tau, GK,
Come the Apoc; DEldar, Crons,
Never; Orks, CSM, Daemons, Nids
BB; Sisters, Marines (inc BT, BA, DA & SW),
Con; Eldar, Tau, GK, Crons, DEldar,
Never; CSM, Daemons, Nids
BB; all SM and IG,
CtA; Eldar, Tau, Cron
Never; CSM, Daemons, Nids, Orks, DEldar
con; All Imperial
CtA; Tau, Eldar, Crons
Never; DEldar, CSM, Daemons, Orks, Nids
Con; IG & marines
CtA; DEldar, Orks, GK, Sisters,
Never; daemons, CSM, Crons, Nids
Con; DEldar, all SM, IG, Crons,
CtA; Sisters, GK, CSM
Never; Orks, Nids, Daemons
Con; Tau, Orks, CSM
CtA; IG, all SM, Eldar
Never; GK, daemons, Nids, Sisters, Crons
Con; DEldar, CSM, Daemons,
CtA; IG, Eldar
Never; All SM, GK, Nids, Crons, sisters
Con: Tau, IG, CSM
CtA; GK, all SM, Sisters
Never: Orks, Nids, Daemons, Eldar, DEldar
Con: DEldar, Crons, Orks
Never: All Imperial, Eldar, Nids
Never; all imperial, Eldar, DEldar, Tau, Crons, Nids
Nids- stays as per BRB
Well, in reply to the Imperial Guard issue above, most of the backgrounds supports the existance of traitor Guard, so there's less of an issue there. Otherwise agreed with most of what you brought up.
I see this is turning from a "debate" into a shouting match in the school playground.
Allies aren't compulsory.
You don't have to play someone.
This game requires mature and sensible attitudes, as well as a degree of imagination.
Your hobby is yours, but that doesn't entitle you to force it on someone else.
There is no such thing as canon.
GWs universe is huge and mostly unexplored. If people want to explore that in ways that isn't represented in GWs limited background then so be it. You don't have to agree with it, but it doesn't give you the right to say that person is wrong.
The only discussion on the Allies matrix is whether you, personally, are going to use it or not.
Equal command structure and giving them some more appropriate chaosy leaders.
I'd rather that Imperial Guard stayed Imperial, suggesting that you should be able to represent traitor guard from the IG codex is a bit like saying you should be able to represent dark Eldar from the Eldar codex.
They could have made the fluff gamers happy by giving them a strictly limited allies system, or they could have made the gamey players happy by leaving allies completely open, instead they managed to piss of both groups by inventing a set of restrictions which don't follow the background, gamey players can't make the combos they want and fluff players a frustrated because allies don't follow the fluff, everyone loses...
They are not best buds by any means. They are still the same race tough are regard each other that was. Its just a difference in philosophy.
In fact there are a couple of examples of fluff where they work together.
I also think there is a third faction of eldar (so not dark not crafworld) that has equal dealing whit both.
Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines can never ally because "Traitor" Marines tried to exterminate the emperor. Chaos can ally with guard because there are lots of "traitor" guard in the fluff, on worlds taken by chaos, they were just never officially included in any rules, outside of the video games...
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
Besides, models counts as "fluff" for me, as far as it matters for that last post - they're part of the imagery. You can buy into whatever aspects of this you like, whether you like to delve into the back story (I don't, largely because it's silly and juvenile if you look at it too closely these days) or just soak up the aesthetic. Same kind of principle when it comes to motivation to play. You can't filter the rules in the same way though.
Idiots... nothing can live forever.