Blood Angels Tactica - 6th Edition

[soultaker87]

So I'm starting a blood angels army (decent of angels army) and was wondering, which allies would work with a jump pack army? Also which Allies would work well with blood angels period?

[blameless]

What about Sanguinary Guard? Have to say they look a lot better with the general nerf to power weapons and the boost to jump infantry. But are they worth taking?

They are better now yes. I took them anyway so now I just got a slight buff. In combo with FNP now they get the 5+ against ap1-2=AWESOME

[Enigma6]

Dante's axe does not have its own rules. It is a master crafted power weapon. i.e. it has the rules of a power weapon (and is clearly an axe, from name & model) and it is master crafted. It is a real waste of Dante's fantastic initiative, but currently them's the rules.

Astarophs axe is a little trickier. It is clearly an axe but the RAW has it using the rules of a power sword, plus it's extra rules. Honestly I prefer this to Dante as he can use his initiative. If your that worried about 2+ then put him with a fist sarge or something.

It seems from the rules wording that Glaive Encarmine can most likely be whatever you model them to be. The Sang Guard box even comes with an axe option. I'd avoid axes and just upgrade to a fist for AP2, but maybe the odd lance would be an interesting prospect. Does anyone have better thought out argument against this, either from a rules or tactics perspective?

[Sgt John Keel]

Dante's axe does not have its own rules. It is a master crafted power weapon. i.e. it has the rules of a power weapon (and is clearly an axe, from name & model) and it is master crafted. It is a real waste of Dante's fantastic initiative, but currently them's the rules.

I am not convinced by the argument that Dante's axe does not have unique rules. I'd wager that by "unique rules", GW does not mean a rule that does not exist anywhere else in the ruleset, since it would be non-trivial to decide whether any one item was truly unique. My gut feeling is that any power weapon which has a name different to the weapons with statlines in the main rulebook and not explicitly changed (e.g. Glaive Encarmine) will count as an "Unusual Power Weapon".

The rulebook does say that you should look what the model has if the weapon has no further special rules. Master-crafted is not listed in the weapons section, but rather in the Special Rules section, so you should not use the model to ascertain what kind of Power Weapon it has.

Personally, I'm happy either way. It would be sad to lose the awesome initiative, but fighting at lower initiative steps could be good too.

Also, I don't think this is the thread for this discussion. And GW should have taken the few minutes to explicitly enumerate the weapon stats in the FAQs.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

In other news, a master-crafted Nemesis force halberd no longer gives +2 initiative. It's just AP3.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Dante has a power axe. He strikes with strength 5, AP2, and initiative 1. Of course GW could change that but for now...

[Enigma6]

Indeed, an often missed part of a 'neglection nerf' in an FAQ is that players will actually be put off using the model/unit to avoid these exact discussions in every game. I'm pretty sure I get the intention of the stuff that was missed, but it would have been so easy to make it completely clear for each weapon.

Will anyone be more likely to take a token tactical squad in 6th? Parked on the home objective behind a fortification with quad gun?

I can see 4ML devistators becoming popular for anti vehicle duty, until the 5th ed mentality is wiped away and mech is less popular. 4 frags still works ok though.

[kaintxu]

Dante's axe does not have its own rules. It is a master crafted power weapon. i.e. it has the rules of a power weapon (and is clearly an axe, from name & model) and it is master crafted. It is a real waste of Dante's fantastic initiative, but currently them's the rules.

Astarophs axe is a little trickier. It is clearly an axe but the RAW has it using the rules of a power sword, plus it's extra rules. Honestly I prefer this to Dante as he can use his initiative. If your that worried about 2+ then put him with a fist sarge or something.

It seems from the rules wording that Glaive Encarmine can most likely be whatever you model them to be. The Sang Guard box even comes with an axe option. I'd avoid axes and just upgrade to a fist for AP2, but maybe the odd lance would be an interesting prospect. Does anyone have better thought out argument against this, either from a rules or tactics perspective?

Enigma, You don't always have to look at the model. This is done for when they are equipped with a power weapon. If you read Unussual power weapons entrance it says that whenever a power weapon has its own rules, you give it AP3, and what ever rules it has, do Astaroth has its own rules, so it goes with AP3, Glaive Encarmine also has its own rules (2handed and master crafted) so whatever it looks like, you just give it AP3.

At least thats how I read it, anyone else can say something on the topic?

Let also discuss something else.... Stormraven.

Unless BRB faq gives ML flak, we are screwed against fliers, let it be MC or aircrafts, so what do you think about our ravens?

200 points, makes it the expensives flier around.

I think it has 3 HP, which coupled with AV12, ceramite placing makes it a little tougher than DE fliers, Orc fliers, IG fliers, or SM fliers.

Let check shooting, we have a stander TL AC, and TLHB, of course I would change both.... the HB I don't know where chage it for the ML or the TLMM, maybe even keep it since 3 S5 can take HP from other fliers?
The TLAC, could be great on close distances, but if we are going for longer ones the LC is better, or now, with the templates having full strength, TLPC could be really sweet since fliers are big, and can also be used nicely against infantry

Also remember the 4 bloodstriket Missiles, with 60" range S8 and FP1 (which means +2 in damage chart) are just nasty. First turn aim the typhoon ML and 2 of these to a flier (should be crippled) and plasma Canon with machine spirit somewhere else, rinse and repeat on turn 2 if alive (remember,flier get to fire 4 weapons even when moving)

Any opinions?

[BEARO]

A lot of people say Dante is nerfed, is there a reason why? Doesn't his axe count as a unusual power weapon? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the 6th Ed. FAQ.

[kaintxu]

In other news, a master-crafted Nemesis force halberd no longer gives +2 initiative. It's just AP3.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Dante has a power axe. He strikes with strength 5, AP2, and initiative 1. Of course GW could change that but for now...

Actually you are wrong, haven't you read anything we have said?

nemesis force halberd DO GIVE +2 I and they are AP 3 because unusual power weapons keep their special rules

And as Sgt John Keel said, dantes is not a power axe, same as above, he explains it quite well, as do I

[kaintxu]

A lot of people say Dante is nerfed, is there a reason why? Doesn't his axe count as a unusual power weapon? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the 6th Ed. FAQ.

Yes but no longer kills terms, or other TDA IC, but this also applies to meph, astorath, Draigo and so on.....

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Actually you are wrong, haven't you read anything we have said?

nemesis force halberd DO GIVE +2 I and they are AP 3 because unusual power weapons keep their special rules

And as Sgt John Keel said, dantes is not a power axe, same as above, he explains it quite well, as do I

The only "special rule" Dante has is master-crafting. You guys are claiming "master-crafting" makes a weapon unique. Consequently, if you master-craft a Nemesis force halberd it ceases to be a Nemesis force halberd.

Dante has a master-crafted power axe. It is even modelled with a power axe. You show it to any person in the store and they'll say it's a power axe. Consequently it's a power axe.

Astaroth actually has a unique weapon meaning that the executioner's axe is a special weapon with S6, AP3 and re-rolling successful invulnerable saves.

[Frgt/10]

The only "special rule" Dante has is master-crafting. You guys are claiming "master-crafting" makes a weapon unique. Consequently, if you master-craft a Nemesis force halberd it ceases to be a Nemesis force halberd.

This is so far wrong it's hilarious.
Regardless of whether you master craft a NFH or not it still keeps its +2 I bonus and either way it's ap3.
An unusual weapon keeps all of its old rules, it just GAINS ap3. That's it.

[kaintxu]

The only "special rule" Dante has is master-crafting. You guys are claiming "master-crafting" makes a weapon unique. Consequently, if you master-craft a Nemesis force halberd it ceases to be a Nemesis force halberd.

Dante has a master-crafted power axe. It is even modelled with a power axe. You show it to any person in the store and they'll say it's a power axe. Consequently it's a power axe.

Astaroth actually has a unique weapon meaning that the executioner's axe is a special weapon with S6, AP3 and re-rolling successful invulnerable saves.

You master craft a force halberd and it KEEPS all special rules, so it keeps +2 I and master crafted man, its quite clearly stated

Why is astaroth a unique weapon? Dante´s is also unique, it even has its own name, having more "estrange" rules is not what makes them uncommon power weapons, having any special rule is what makes them....

[Private_SeeD]

It crazy that this topic regarding SC's and their weapons is raging on a dozen threads, when its in black and white that unusual power weapons are AP3 and keep there special rules, yes Dante has an axe but it's no normal axe.
It says in the FAQ for the GK's that all nemesis weapons are unusual force weapons so they keep their special rules aka +2 I for Halberds or +1 A for Falchions and etc, because again they might look similar but that's where it ends


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

[Blademeister]

Enigma, You don't always have to look at the model. This is done for when they are equipped with a power weapon. If you read Unussual power weapons entrance it says that whenever a power weapon has its own rules, you give it AP3, and what ever rules it has, do Astaroth has its own rules, so it goes with AP3, Glaive Encarmine also has its own rules (2handed and master crafted) so whatever it looks like, you just give it AP3.

At least thats how I read it, anyone else can say something on the topic?

Let also discuss something else.... Stormraven.

Unless BRB faq gives ML flak, we are screwed against fliers, let it be MC or aircrafts, so what do you think about our ravens?

200 points, makes it the expensives flier around.

I think it has 3 HP, which coupled with AV12, ceramite placing makes it a little tougher than DE fliers, Orc fliers, IG fliers, or SM fliers.

Let check shooting, we have a stander TL AC, and TLHB, of course I would change both.... the HB I don't know where chage it for the ML or the TLMM, maybe even keep it since 3 S5 can take HP from other fliers?
The TLAC, could be great on close distances, but if we are going for longer ones the LC is better, or now, with the templates having full strength, TLPC could be really sweet since fliers are big, and can also be used nicely against infantry

Also remember the 4 bloodstriket Missiles, with 60" range S8 and FP1 (which means +2 in damage chart) are just nasty. First turn aim the typhoon ML and 2 of these to a flier (should be crippled) and plasma Canon with machine spirit somewhere else, rinse and repeat on turn 2 if alive (remember,flier get to fire 4 weapons even when moving)

Any opinions?

I love my Storm Raven. They are actually very survivable. I ussualy keep the twin-linked assault cannon, and then use a twin-linked multi-melta. Then I have a 5 man Termie squad with TH/SS inside. Awesome pairing. Blood strike missiles are great. I play alot of nids players who love their doom of malan'tai, and I just use them to snipe him. Great for popping tanks aswell.

[MattP]

Can we all agree to stop the Dante's weapon debate and fill this tactica with something useful? Its very clear when you read the power weapons entry and then becomes unclear when you read the unusual weapons entry because of the words "special" and "unique."

I haven't played a game yet but it appears terms and artificer armor might be tougher since all the power swords out there are ap3.

[kaintxu]

I love my Storm Raven. They are actually very survivable. I ussualy keep the twin-linked assault cannon, and then use a twin-linked multi-melta. Then I have a 5 man Termie squad with TH/SS inside. Awesome pairing. Blood strike missiles are great. I play alot of nids players who love their doom of malan'tai, and I just use them to snipe him. Great for popping tanks aswell.

Yep, totally agree. Thing is, would you risk skies encarmine, or however it´s called in english to move over 6 and disembark the terms, or would you risk the raven and go hoover one turn to disembark them and assault due to the ramp?

Yep, being the originator, I totally agree to stop the Axe topic, and focus on the awesomeness of the raven XD

[Coyote81]

In other news, a master-crafted Nemesis force halberd no longer gives +2 initiative. It's just AP3.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Dante has a power axe. He strikes with strength 5, AP2, and initiative 1. Of course GW could change that but for now...

How did it lose it's +2 Initiative? It is indeed an unusual force weapon with it's daemon bane rule.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It doesn't. I was pointing out that if we applied the same logic to master-crafting a force halberd as some are to Dante's axe then we would reach an absurd conclusion.

[ElladanM]

That squad would be 290 points minimum before a transport or jetpacks though.

10 man ASM with Melta and PF is 235 points, cheapest HQ which can follow them is 125 pts (jump Libby) making it 360 pts vs 320 pts (with reclusiarch with DC), add a rhino and it's 370 pts. (Adding a jump priest make ASM 75pts more expensive)

So for similar point cost you have 2 marines less, similar mobility, less range AT, but WAY more CC power. I'm not saying BA should field Astorath and 3 DCs as troops with 3 DC dread, I'm just saying they now are an exceptional spearhead type of unit. Basicly, you send them annihilate any elite CC unit your opponent has. They can even take rip a trygon (yes the marine-killer-beast) to pieces on the charge as they will average 9,27 unsaved wounds (mathammered below) while loosing 2,5 DCs. And if you aren't lucky with those rolls well Concussive actually make the trygon attack at I1 next assault round, letting you finish it before it strikes back.

30 regular attacks * 3/4 hits * 5/9 wounds *1/3 unsaved = 4,167 unsaved wounds

10 P Sword attack * 3/4 hits * 5/9 wounds = 4.167 unsaved wounds

5 Reclusiarch attacks * 3/4 hits * 3/4 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 0.9375 unsaved wounds

Total wounds : 9.2716 unsaved wounds