Archers, Spearmen or Lothern Sea guard ?

[cornonthecob]

Ok I've just started High elves (my main army dwarfs) and I'm wondering what the core of my list should be ?

I've heard that LSG are 'defensive spearmen' , archers not that great and Spearmen ok.

[Azaireal]

Synergize core with magic. Otherwise, you are just comparing Expensive S3 attacks.

Other than that, go for aesthetics. HE core is almost the worst core. Pick what looks coolest.

(on a side note, taking 1 of each unit can fill your requirements nicely with the proper upgrades)

[NitrosOkay]

I think both Spearmen and Archers can be justified.

Sea Guard don't have longbows and cost four more points than spearmen. I think they're too expensive for what you get if you're really looking to win. If you aren't then go for it.

[Gamu]

Archers are expensive, but can clear chaff so your elites hit the important units of the enemy. Spears can be good in big blocks if you take shadow as your main magic lore, having many ASF rerrolling to hit attacks, mindrazor and whithering help them a lot.

I use full archers core, some small units, and some big units.

[hazmiter]

Spearbusses can win games, archers w flaming banner can do damage (lost 2 hydras that way) and lothern seaguard can do both jobs, but not as well....
Magical buffs a must for them though, otherwise they die fast, a shield of saph here and there makes the difference, as does curse arrow attraction.

[Blast Hardcheese]

I am also a Dwarf player who has dabbled in the realm of the High Elves. Honestly, for a balanced list, I go with 1 unit of each. The Spears are the biggest block at 30. The Seaguard are usually deploy 20 in a block and use volley fire with them. The archers are usually my smallest unit at 12, but I give them command because those ASF re-rolls and elven statline allow them to fend off small fast cav units and the like. Unless you are taking Swordmasters, buffing the core is always a good move. You may want to change this up against certain opponents of course, but never underestimate the power of a butt load of str 3 attacks that re-roll to hit.

[Malorian]

Use up all your 25% requirement on one big block of spearmen.

If you want them to have bows and shoot stuff too then go ahead.

I'd only take archers as a bunker.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

^ This is very poor advice, don't do this.

The core of your army should be based upon the school of magic you take. If you take Shadow (as it's the best lore for H.E's main "tourney builds" ie; Teclis and BoH) both archers and spearmen are key, however they should remain small-medium sized blocks.

Any Spear block under 25 won't have enough models to get to grips with the enemy with enough attacks to kill and mitigate damage back, especially under arms fire and magic missles, etc.. . . This being said, more than 35 is tempting fate, as templates can easily scatter and kill buckets of troops, uber-spell to zap it, and or a stiff brezze to kill it (we're T3 for example Sallies will eat us0 and can reliably kill whatever they're fighting with 21-28 attacks the first round of combat and a S.C.R -due to having numerous ranks- to couple with the kills, not many units will be steadfast after a combat phase of Withering or Okkams.

Archers should be looked into as well as S3 shots against withered units (along with some charcters/bolt throwers) and your talking about deleting a unit a turn, though they're more needed to pick off chaff than anything else.

LSG shouldn't be considered a option, as they aren't cost effective for what they do.

[Lord Dan]

My buddy runs a block of 36 spears and two units of archers at 12 and 14 strong, I believe. At 2500 points this takes care of that pesky 625 point core requirement...

[bigbear bailey]

For me there was always unwritten rules with core for high elf.

1) If you are looking to clear chaff 2 man units of archers
2) 30 men or less of archers can do some serious damage with the flaming banner (shoot, then stand and shoot, then 30 attacks reroll to hit)
3) Any more then 30 I would do spearmen, or sea guard if you really like the stand and shoot option.

People always discount sea guard, but in huge units they are pretty good, especially if you get off a buff like flaming sword (shooting and hand to hand plus 1 to wound)

[Vaiuri]

I dont play in tournaments (so you may want to disregard anything I say if that is your plan), but I tend to go on what inspires me visually and then make it work. For High Elves its LSG and Archers, I really like the kneeling first rank of archers with others ranked up behind - I also kitbashed my archers with Wood Elves sine I wanted them to look more like rangers than ordered city-elves.

I've found that using big (30+) units of LSG works well for me. Give them the flaming banner pop them on the flank of an elite unit to support them and they can be surprisingly nasty. You can play this defensively too by sitting on your baseline and just shooting flaming arrows at anything that comes close (and theres a lot more regen floating around these days - thanks Mortis Engine!).

I know simple Spearelves are a solid choice but I cant abide the models. Having said that I have kitbashed a few using the heads off the plastic chariot and it really improves the look.

Long story short, go with your gut and you'll find ways to make it work for you

[kreckon]

i've tried using LSG and spearmen in blocks of 20 upto 50. what i have found though is that u can make these guys really nasty by making a block of 55 LSG if your playing a 3k game,
in horde formation with banner of eternal flame (FC)(750pts) add a bsb with battle banner (206pts) and your doing 53 attacks with d6 added to combat res.
i find that these guys if caught out and hold there own against grave guard for about 3 rounds doing some nasty damage.

but you could also go with spearmen, 8 ranks of 5 (FC) (385pts) with a bsb battle banner (206pts)
and
30 archers (FC) with banner of eternal flame (365pts)

core 750pts.

[theunwantedbeing]

675pts gets you

50 Lothern Sea Guard with sheilds and full command
or
50 Spearmen with full command and 18 Archers
or
72 Spearmen with full command

You'll want to horde these big units to fight in the full 5 ranks and generate the maximum number of attacks and get the biggest benefit from any buff spells you want to put on them.
ie. Mindrazor

It's a matter of personal choice at this point which you want to use.
LSG are generally not considered the best choice simply because you can buy 50 spearmen who fight just as well and still have room for a load of archers, or almost 50% more spearmen.

[CrystalSphere]

I would take spears or archers, but not sea guard unless you really like the unit. Spears are best when used in narrow but deep formation, so that you can get a lot of attacks while keeping ranks and hopefully steadfast, this unit is powerful if enhanced by magic or agaisnt weak T3 units with low save. Archers on the other hand are best on a wide frontage and two ranks deep, so that all minitaures can fire, this unit is best equipped with the flaming banner so that you have more valuable targets and some defense agaisnt cavalry. I think around 30 miniatures for each unit is a good number.

The problem with sea guard is that it combines spears, a weapon which is best used in deep formations (you put out more attacks than you receive), with bows, a weapon which needs a wide frontage in order to all miniatures to fire. So to use both advantages, you need to reform the unit several times to change from the role of "archer" to the "spears", so in the end, unless it is a obvious defensive battle were you sit back and wait for the enemy to come, the sea guard needs to move (less accurate shooting) and reform for melee (less turns shooting) at the right time. I think it´s a gimmick unit because it tries to fill two roles at the same time and that is very hard to do, as the unit doesn´t have any special rules to help it do that kind of hybrid gameplay.

[Ascendant Conscience]

In my recent games, I have found that a horde of 55 Lothern Sea Guard are all but unstoppable when they have Okkam's Mindrazor cast on them. The fact they are equipped with bows is an additional bonus in that you can at least fire at approaching enemies and retaliate against enemy archers. In my last game a unit of Lothern Sea Guard shot a Corpse Cart to death and wounded the Necromancer atop it; Spearmen would be unable to reply until said Cart charged them, supported by the two hordes of Zombies accompanying it.

-AC

[Lorcryst]

Interesting thread ...

Personnaly, for my planned High Elf army, I'll have all three ... small units of 10 Archers, a big block of Spearmen, and a big block of Sea Guard ...

All three have slightly different roles, of course, the Archers being "anti-chaff", the Spearmen being "mage-bunker" and the Sea Guard being "main unit" ... well, all that is in my head, I still have to actually try it on the battlefield

Don't forget that in 8th ed, bows have the "volley fire" rule, meaning a deep block of Sea Guard can still pump out a lot of shots ... 50 Sea Guard in "bus" formation (5 wide and 10 deep) can loose 30 shots (10 for the two first ranks, 40/2 for the back ranks), but I think they would be better in "horde" formation ... meaning 35 shots (20 + 30/2), and a "stand and shoot" of 20, plus all 5 ranks fighting in close combat.

With a couple of buffs, a really nice "mainstay" unit, while the specialists (all of the Special section) can flank, mop up units decimated by bow/bolt thrower fire, or simply charge things and make mincemeat of them (Swordmasters).

[Lord Dan]

In my recent games, I have found that a horde of 55 Lothern Sea Guard are all but unstoppable when they have Okkam's Mindrazor cast on them. The fact they are equipped with bows is an additional bonus in that you can at least fire at approaching enemies and retaliate against enemy archers. In my last game a unit of Lothern Sea Guard shot a Corpse Cart to death and wounded the Necromancer atop it; Spearmen would be unable to reply until said Cart charged them, supported by the two hordes of Zombies accompanying it.

-AC

The only problem I have with LSG is their pricetag. Any smart player knows that if they focus fire on the seaguard they will have little problem bringing them down and will pocket almost 1/5 the points in your army, as T3 and a 5+ armor save won't hold up for long.

[Lorcryst]

The only problem I have with LSG is their pricetag. Any smart player knows that if they focus fire on the seaguard they will have little problem bringing them down and will pocket almost 1/5 the points in your army, as T3 and a 5+ armor save won't hold up for long.

Well, you could say that for almost the whole High Elf army, except maybe White Lions ... Elves are squishy and pricey

[bigbear bailey]

yeah, I would never give them shields, no need to make a million dollar elf have paper towel armor (saves ya 50 pts)

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

Lorcryst:

You mean Phoniex Guard. Yes, the whole H.E book is overpriced, however, making due with what we have, and emphasizing the stronger and more cheaper aspects in the book is how one can facilitate "better tools for the correct job."

Spear are C.R generators (the only unit in the book that can do so). Archers are there to pick off chaff (unless with Shadow Magic, then they can annihilate entire units) as well as serve as a H.E armies main bunker unit, while lastly Seaguard fill out your core more quickly and look great, besides that. . . .

Edit: ^^^^^^The above should not be taken as advice as well -again poor advice. I'm sorry, but taking shields on LSG is a must, that +6 save against S4/S3 A.P, or the +5 save against S3 is worth more in the weight of elves it saves than the points you save.

The only troop in the entire game that can follow the mantra of save the shields for my bodies are slaves, and that's because you can get more wounds than the parries and armor would save you.