Revamping Marks of Chaos

[tenspeedscarab]

I had an idea on the train the other day concerning Marks of Chaos in a Warriors army. Right now, I don't think they are doing a good job: Tzeentch's +1 ward save is a little overpowered right now, poor Nurgle's ability is far too highly situational, and Slaanesh is as crappy as always. Granted, it makes me happy as a Chaos player to have a 3+ ward save on my general, but I don't think a Tzeentch character should be a "tank".

I don't have point approximations, but I have some idea of what I think Marks should do. First, I think that Marks should be different on characters versus units. As champions of their dark powers, I would assume that their powers would reward them better than the average Warrior or Marauder. So, here are my ideas:

Mark of Tzeentch:
Unit of Tzeentch: Unit counts as a wizard for the purposes of channeling power die, and they re-roll failed to hit rolls in the first round of combat (Tzeentch's foresight)
Hero/Lord of Tzeench: All the benefits above, and +1 to all casting rolls (also maybe re-roll in every round of combat, but maybe not)

Mark of Nurgle
Unit of Nurgle: 5+ Regeneration, cause fear (I debated between 6+ and 5+, and figured that because flaming attacks are not too uncommon, 5+ was okay, but I suppose a 6+ regeneration would mimic the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty well)
Character of Nurgle: As above, +1 toughness

Mark of Khorne
Unit of Khorne: Unit counts as a level 2 wizard for the purposes of channeling dispel dice and for dispelling, Frenzy
Character of Khorne: as above, Devastating Charge and possibly Magic Resistance 1

Mark of Slaanesh
Unit of Slaanesh: Stubborn (possibly always strikes first, but that seems a little OP)
Character of Slaanesh: as above, and +1 Initiative and +1 Attack for every unsaved wound suffered.


Now, I know that all of these are significantly more powerful than they are at present, but if rumors are true that we may lose the ability to mark normal Warriors and can only mark Chosen, I think these marks go a lot further in terms of making marked units really feel different. I also think Marks should be a per-model cost, (but as is I totally love my 40-man Khornate Marauder horde) and I think that these marks should cost significantly more than Marks do at present. I'm not sure what Chaos Undivided should do.

Thoughts?

[Last Edition]

Hey.

I don't think you have considered how these marks will work in conjunction with each other? Isolated, they could be fine, although too powerful for my tastes, but when you start combining units of these, thats when the cheese would come to play and unfluffy combination - like, it would be very tempting to put in a khorne fighter character in a slaanesh unit... I have seen too many attempts at getting the marks right, but no one have successfully balanced them out.

I want the whole mark idea scratched, its more a shackle than an option - it serves no purpose other than harvesting units which has the most optimal mark option. It is just a hinder for hobbyists/players who want to make themed armies. If marks where only in the fluff of the unit; nurgle, khorne, tzeentch, slaanesh and even undivided would be equal every time.

just my 2 cents

[tenspeedscarab]

I don't think you have considered how these marks will work in conjunction with each other? Isolated, they could be fine, although too powerful for my tastes, but when you start combining units of these, thats when the cheese would come to play and unfluffy combination - like, it would be very tempting to put in a khorne fighter character in a slaanesh unit... I have seen too many attempts at getting the marks right, but no one have successfully balanced them out.

Hmm, you make a good point. I remember back in the old Chaos Space Marine codex and the Hordes of Chaos army book that there were rules about army composition and deployment that limited those marks: for example, something like you couldn't take a marked character unless you also had a unit with the same mark, and marked characters could only join units with the same mark. I would like to see that again whenever the 8th edition WoC book comes out, but given Game Workshop's new direction of "Chaos plays nice!" (A Tzeentch spellcaster can take the Axe of Khorne?), that may be a stretch.

I want the whole mark idea scratched, its more a shackle than an option - it serves no purpose other than harvesting units which has the most optimal mark option. It is just a hinder for hobbyists/players who want to make themed armies. If marks where only in the fluff of the unit; nurgle, khorne, tzeentch, slaanesh and even undivided would be equal every time.

I have to respectfully disagree with your point that Marks should only be fluff. When I face a Khornate army, I want to be facing a bunch of blood-crazed bezerkers, and when I face Nurgle, I want to face diseased, tough horrible warriors. Removing Marks, I think, would be a terrible thing - for example, with Games Workshop's decision to remove all the legion-specific rules from the Chaos Space Marine codex, an Iron Warriors army is the same as a Alpha Legion army is the same as a Night Lords army - except the paintjob. I feel like a mechanical difference between worshipers of different gods allows for not only different army composition but also different playstyles. Take Marks of Chaos away and Warriors of Chaos become, well, Warriors.

[theunwantedbeing]

Mark of Tzeentch:
Unit of Tzeentch: Unit counts as a wizard for the purposes of channeling power die, and they re-roll failed to hit rolls in the first round of combat (Tzeentch's foresight)
Hero/Lord of Tzeench: All the benefits above, and +1 to all casting rolls (also maybe re-roll in every round of combat, but maybe not)

Hatred? Hell no.
The channelling thing is reasonable though, glad to see you aren't buffing ward saves as that at least shows some common sense.

Mark of Nurgle
Unit of Nurgle: 5+ Regeneration, cause fear (I debated between 6+ and 5+, and figured that because flaming attacks are not too uncommon, 5+ was okay, but I suppose a 6+ regeneration would mimic the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty well)
Character of Nurgle: As above, +1 toughness

So...they're basically Tzeentch with sheilds, but without sheilds, not a fan.
Regen is just too powerful an ability.

I like +1 toughness, personally I miss the +1 wound Nurgle character's used to get as that made them very interesting.

Mark of Khorne
Unit of Khorne: Unit counts as a level 2 wizard for the purposes of channeling dispel dice and for dispelling, Frenzy
Character of Khorne: as above, Devastating Charge and possibly Magic Resistance 1

So the same as current basically.
I take it you had no useful idea's left after you already gave re-rolls to a different god :P
If anyone deserves combat re-rolls it's Khorne as that is what makes you the best in combat.
A weaponskill boost would be nice.

Mark of Slaanesh
Unit of Slaanesh: Stubborn (possibly always strikes first, but that seems a little OP)
Character of Slaanesh: as above, and +1 Initiative and +1 Attack for every unsaved wound suffered.

ASF is a stupid rule to give them, so I'm glad you sugguested stubborn first. It fits far better.
The character idea is the best one so far, it used to be a slaaneshi item anyway so bringing it back in mark-form makes thing really cool.

I do prefer the idea of nothing without chaos armour being allowed a chaos mark.
This stops marauders being given marks which ultimately work far better for them than for actual chaos warriors.

[Last Edition]

I have to respectfully disagree with your point that Marks should only be fluff. When I face a Khornate army, I want to be facing a bunch of blood-crazed bezerkers, and when I face Nurgle, I want to face diseased, tough horrible warriors. Removing Marks, I think, would be a terrible thing - for example, with Games Workshop's decision to remove all the legion-specific rules from the Chaos Space Marine codex, an Iron Warriors army is the same as a Alpha Legion army is the same as a Night Lords army - except the paintjob. I feel like a mechanical difference between worshipers of different gods allows for not only different army composition but also different playstyles. Take Marks of Chaos away and Warriors of Chaos become, well, Warriors.

The problem is that I (we) don't face blood-crazed berzerkers or face diseased nurgle warriors, because there are only tzeentch marks going about (with a very, very few Khorne). And for me, marks don't make me feel any different towards an army - none, only a paint job can make me feel I am facing a diseased infested force. A plastic warrior unit with mark of khorne just leaves an impression of a unit with frenzy special rule I can take advantage from...

Army composition on the other hand is another story entirely. If the mark of the general decided army composition, it would start to get interesting. Example: A Khorne General could benefit from having one Forsaken unit as a core choice, or a Nurgle general could take one chaos troll unit as core. In contrast to unit marks, a composition system would actually create new options...

[tenspeedscarab]

TheUnwantedBeing: I wanted to give Tzeentch at least something that was a combat buff - I couldn't think of anything fluffy that would fit. I suppose Tzeentch could just be the channel thing, but Tzeentch warriors should have some sort of offensive or defensive buff that's fluffy. I felt "accuracy" made sense fluff wise, and I gave the re-rolls to Tzeentch because I figured that Khorne isn't so much about landing hits as he is about rolling buckets of dice. Khorne wants to maximize possible damage, Tzeentch wants what he has to work perfectly.

After some thought, I agree that a 5+ regen would be too much. 6+ Regen would mimic the parry save for a shield, but wouldn't stack, so there would be an incentive to give Nurgle warriors Halberds or flails or something, which I think is fluffy.

And I agree, while it is useful to have marked marauders, and it's not stretching too far to imagine a Khornate or whatever Marauder tribe, Marks should be reserved for the big guys: Warriors, Ogres, Chosen, Knights, etc.

Last Edition: I see what you're saying, but at least from the chaos player's side of the table it feels different to roll a bucket of dice for your Khornate unit, be able to rely on your Nurgle troops to weather incoming fire and terrify weak-willed opponents, or to have Slaaneshi troops fearlessly throwing themselves onto enemy weapons and giggling. The mechanical differences let the same Core unit type be able to fulfill four different roles in the army, based on how it's marked. I like that. I do like the idea of different marks making army composition different, but given the streamlining GW is putting everything through I rather doubt that wish will ever be fulfilled.

[logan054]

to be honest with you I wouldn't be against units losing marks and having the characters the focal point of the list, really having them define how what style of army you play, still on the subject of units with marks, if I was to change them I would change them like this:


Mark of Tzeentch:

Unit of Tzeentch: Units targeted by a augment spell gain the ASF special rule
Hero/Lord of Tzeench: As above, exalted heroes and lords may purchase magic levels (2 for a hero, 4 for a lord), sorcerer and sorcerer lords of Tzeentch have the lore master special rule and +1 to casting and dispelling

I would also remove the Chaos lores and have the lores defined by the mark

Mark of Nurgle

Unit of Nurgle: 5+ Regeneration,
Character of Nurgle: As above, Cause fear, if they already cause fear they now cause terror

Mark of Khorne

Unit of Khorne: Frenzy and MR1
Character of Khorne: as above with Killing blow

I would have anti magic provided either by a new character like a warrior priest or change the warshrine to be more of a anti magic purple, like +2 to dispel attempts of against hex and direct damage spells that target friendly units with 12"

Mark of Slaanesh

Unit of Slaanesh: Swiftstrider, immune to psycology
Character of Slaanesh: Always strikes first

I would certainly remove marks on marauder units.

[theunwantedbeing]

Mark of Tzeentch:
Unit of Tzeentch: Units targeted by a augment spell gain the ASF special rule

I'de make units of Tzeentch affected by spells be granted an eye of the gods roll.

[tenspeedscarab]

Mark of Slaanesh

Unit of Slaanesh: Swiftstrider, immune to psycology
Character of Slaanesh: Always strikes first

I would certainly remove marks on marauder units.

I've always felt that Slaanesh = fast kind of missed the point, it was more supposed to be Slaanesh = Pain & Pleasure. So things like Immune to Pyschology, Stubborn, getting benefits from wounds taken, etc. And I do agree with you, the option to give marks to marauders was a bit of a misstep on GW's part.