Kroxigor - Help me understand

[SilentTempest]

Hi folks,

I'm normally a Wood Elves player, but am considering a second army, and it may end up being the Lizards. A lot of the units, I look at, and see value. I can see how they'd be useful, and that they're not a bad expenditure for points.

But I'm struggling with Kroxigor.

They seem like a lot of points for something that will frequently be hitting on 4s, and hitting last, and only has Toughness 4. I've heard that most people feel you really need to run them in skink blocks (skrox, I believe it's called). But then don't you get the problem of skinks dying in droves and this negating any CR generated by Krox kills? Or is this a unit that's only for flanking or picking on armoured cav units and the like (i.e. intercepting a unit of knights and using the krox to get through that thick armour).

How are Krox regarded? Must takes? Never take? Sometimes? How are they used to get value out of them?

[Clockwork]

Put 2 or 3 in a unit of Skinks and send them after a high armour save, low model count unit - like knights, other monstrous infantry, chariots, or monsters. All of these are perfect targets for Skroxigor units.

Skroxigor units are immune to stomp.
They generate a lot of CR through ranks and banner.
Against the units identified above, it is very easy to maintain Steadfast (even after losing a ton of Skinks, you don't need to maintain a lot of ranks against cavalry or monsters because they generally have so few).
Strength 6 attacks, which are otherwise very difficuilt to come by in a Lizardman army outside of Stegadons and Scar-Veterans. Perfect for bashing anything with high Toughness or armour save - ie, knights, chariots and monsters - and although they don't have many, you only need to get a couple of wounds through each round to win/draw/grind them out.

In addition to this, the unit causes (and is therefore immune to) fear, the Kroxigor can't be targetted in combat, the Skinks have 6+ parry saves, and the whole unit is M6. Not bad, if you ask me! I usually run 22 Skinks with two Kroxigor - a bargain at around 240 points, as they can usually go toe-to-toe with Chaos Knights who cost significantly more.

They won't win games, but they certainly have their uses against specific targets which Lizardmen armies otherwise don't have hard counters to. I have to say, though, I would rarely consider running them without the Skinks. I have tried this before and found that units of 3 on the flanks can be quite effective, but they feel too much like a liability to me.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Skinks and Kroxigors is an eternal debate. Some advocate the use of combined units, others would rather run them separately. I guess you'll have to learn from experience which way suits you best. And like anything in the book, they're not mandatory (nothing in LM is).

I just wanted to say something regarding their high point cost: Yes, they're expensive, but they're als really good. Unlike most Monstrous Infantry out there they have a respectable armor save (4+) which makes them well suited for crushing minor threats without risking much. Also they have the innate Cold Blooded rule which actually buffs their LD quite a bit. These are all reasons why Kroxigors are just that little bit better than other armies' Monstrous Infantry (and sadly also more expensive).

[MOMUS]

Skrox are a very effective formation for the reasons listed above, when combined with light magic they cn be quite nasty.

I usually take big units with two krox, run them up and shoot an enemy in the face. Then take a charge and stand and shoot (quick fire) and then reform after the first round to steadfast formation. I have used the lore of life alot with them making the skinks a real headache at T6.
I have never run kroxigor on their own, i dont really see a reason to field them as you can get rid of all their weaknesses by taking a unit of skrox. I wouldnt be surprised if they were dropped from the next AB, special is already rather full for LM.

[Domandi]

Why would skrox units be immune to stomp? As long as the stomping model is in b2b with a skink, the skink can be stomped... no?

[theunwantedbeing]

Why would skrox units be immune to stomp? As long as the stomping model is in b2b with a skink, the skink can be stomped... no?

It's a rules quirk.
They are a "mixed unit" and mixed units are unable to be stomped.

The most absurd users of this rules are giant rat packs for skaven.
Both the giant rats and the packmasters are stompable if they were on their own, however when they come as a unit they get the "mixed unit" special rule which as stated above, makes them unable to be stomped.

Note characters in unit do not make the unit count as a mixed unit.
The unit needs the special rule "mixed unit".

It's not really that big an issue though, given how few things actually get to do any stomping.

[Domandi]

Oh, that is a bunch of hooey. What a loophole that is.

*edit* i guess freak ing is not allowed.

[eron12]

What's far worse it skrox causing fear and being immune to fear due to a FAQ ruling that directly contradicts what the BRB says.

[Confessor_Atol]

The skrox hoard is really difficult to deal with. 6 krox, 2 deep in a unit of 10 wide skinks means all krox strIke and the unit is often steadfast with a ton of wounds to get through.

[T10]

Skroxigor units are immune to stomp.

In addition to this, the unit causes (and is therefore immune to) fear, ...

Stupid FAQ.

-T10

[dms505]

The skrox hoard is really difficult to deal with. 6 krox, 2 deep in a unit of 10 wide skinks means all krox strIke and the unit is often steadfast with a ton of wounds to get through.

Wait what? The 2nd row of Krox are technically in the 4th row. I don't think they should be able to attack regardless of hoard formation. Is there an FAQ on this or explanation somewhere I missed?

[Glen_Savet]

The skrox hoard is really difficult to deal with. 6 krox, 2 deep in a unit of 10 wide skinks means all krox strIke and the unit is often steadfast with a ton of wounds to get through.

I don't think you CAN put krox 2 deep in a skink unit. The rules in the lizard book say that krox are ALWAYS in the 2nd rank. They'll just be REALLY wide if you put 6 of them in the unit.

[Confessor_Atol]

I don't think you CAN put krox 2 deep in a skink unit. The rules in the lizard book say that krox are ALWAYS in the 2nd rank. They'll just be REALLY wide if you put 6 of them in the unit.

I would love it if that this were the case but the hoard rules refer to models not position or some such other terminology. I dont' know why they couldn't be placed 2 deep, but I'm not the lizard player, I'm on the recieveing end of this. 18 s6 attacks is rough...... Let me konw if the rules prohibit this.

[Glen_Savet]

The rules prohibit this. The Kroxigor Spawn-Kin rule says they are always in the 2nd rank.

[Confessor_Atol]

Good to know. Looks like a certain scaly bastard owes me an apology!

[Ultimate Life Form]

I very much hope this mixed unit goes away the next time around; it was included for nostalgic reasons but as can be seen the implications are just too severe.

[dms505]

Too be honest I'd rather have 2 units of 28S+3K. Decent sized units with hella movement would be like 2 jackhammers. 305 points apiece with no command. 8 wide, decent rank bonus and 9 big boy attacks. I think even a heavy cav unit would think twice about charging this.

[DeathlessDraich]

Just to clarify the rules on Stomping Krox/Skink units:

There is no rule or FAQ that specifically states it can or cannot be done.

The conclusions that have been made were derived from this FAQ:

Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat
comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79)
A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters.
Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by
The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a
unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s
troop type will be unchanged.

1) It refers specifically to units with and infantry/non infantry mix and not to all mixed units. i.e. Giant rats are unaffected.

2) It refers to the 13th spell - not to Stomps

[T10]

Actually, it says this in the Lizardman FAQ:

Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

Q. Does a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors cause Fear? Are they immune to Fear? (p53)
A. Yes to both questions.

This is of course bulldroppings: no-where in the rules does it state that units of mixed troop types become Unique, and the rules for Fear simply don't work in the way the author of the FAQ seems to believe.

[Charistoph]

Actually, it says this in the Lizardman FAQ:

Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

Q. Does a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors cause Fear? Are they immune to Fear? (p53)
A. Yes to both questions.

This is of course bulldroppings: no-where in the rules does it state that units of mixed troop types become Unique, and the rules for Fear simply don't work in the way the author of the FAQ seems to believe.

For the first I can see calling it that, but not the second. If you're fighting alongside something scary wouldn't something just as scary be not so scary?