Space Wolves 6th edition Tactics

[sturguard]

Alright I have spent the last few days pondering how to change my list for 6th edition and I am stumped. I am hoping some other SW players have some insight as to good changes for 6th, I am just not seeing any. Some things I have noticed- (does anyone else think they spent less than 30 minutes working on the FAQ?)

Negatives-
We have nothing to combat fliers right now. Needing 6's to hit means that even an army with 18 ML shots, gets 3 hits, 2 glance/pens with a chance of a jink saving 1. So whole army fires at a Necron Night Scythe and we take off 1 HP. We could also talk about Vendetta's, Dark Eldar bombers etc. I have a feeling more and more fliers will be added which will of course increase this problem.

Frost axe doesnt seem worth it- +2 str plus unwieldy, to me given it costs the same as a pfist, take the pfist or the frost blade.

Most of our psychic powers took a huge hit- Unless they FAQ the FAQ, Tempest doesnt affect fliers (there were none when GW printed the SW book, it looks like it should work but right now it doesnt) MH takes a hit because DTT allow for armor saves now, so if you manage to take 2-3 wounds off a unit, most likely they save all but 1.

Acute senses reroll outflank- sorry this was an army wide rule for us, all of a sudden it affects a single unit in the codex, scouts. Given you will avg at least 1 turn of nightfight a game and we already cant hurt fliers, this spells trouble.

Arjac is easier to kill as he can be challeneged out of the squad.

WG terminators with heavy weapons in GH squads or LF squads can be picked out more easily (less tactical flexibility for us).

Death Company/Beserkers get better with Rage changing but Blood Claws still have headstrong (why they didnt just give them Rage I can't understand)

For some reason all the other Marine variants had their Crozius changed to a power maul, either they forgot to change ours or we can choose?

OBEL scouts cant charge when they enter- so much for taking out Lootas, Devs, Necrons etc they will be wiped out before they get to close combat.

TWC obviously were toned down because of the new wound allocation and adding SShields to the unit is too expensive in my opinion- twice as expensive as wraiths, not as good.

WP with preferred enemy gets worse- going from rerolling all hits to just 1's is definitely worse, even though you reroll wounds of 1 as well.

Even if we get Frakk ammo for our LF, most likely they will cost more and with HP's on fliers, they wont be very cost effective- fliers take out fliers.

Benefits-
WG are characters, you can give them a lookout sir roll so the guy leading the unit with an expensive loadout can be saved by the guy in the rear with just termie armor and a power weapon, I would assume this works in close combat too.

WG can issue a challenge so you can use the guy with the SS.

WG can mix special cc weapons for an extra attack- WG with Pfist and WC is 43 pts, has 3 attacks plus 1 for charging.

Bikes and Assault squads are a bit better, although I dont know if they are that much better to take for us- Assault Squads for BA with FnP, sure, Bikes for the new Dark Angels, again yes- ours I just dont know.

Allies-
First, I can't say I am a fan of allies. I think each army should have strengths and weaknesses and allies are just a way to try and cover those weaknesses and for GW to sell more kits. However, in all honesty, whatever my local game store decides is what I will abide by. I try to play a game every few weeks and whatever goes, goes.

I looked through all potential allies and honestly most times you are buying garbage just to try and get 1 unit which will combat fliers. I dont want to take IG vets in a chim just to get a Vendetta or Hydras. Maybe 8-10 rangers, a farseer and an eldar flier (when it comes out?)- but right now, they dont have a solution.

Tau- a bunch of cheap suits?

Honestly I was thinking of just SM
Master of the Forge with Beamer- he can go in a LF unit and shoot using split fire. He can fortify a piece of terrain for me, he turns deads into heavies, so I can slide a SW dread into my unused heavy slot and take another as elite.
10 scouts with Telion with sniper rifles- cheaper than ours (well you substitute +1 BS for Telion, camo cloaks)
Talon (Decent anti flier)

Anyhow, I am hoping I have missed some things and you good folks can surprise me with ideas. I am not looking for SW to be at the top of the heap, their time has passed and that is okay I have been playing them since the early 90's, however, I have to say, right now we couldnt touch a good Necron list.

[archonisthebesthqever]

I thought missile launchers have the skyfire special rule through the flak ammunition or however it is called ;P

[sturguard]

Entry for MLs says everyone comes with Frag and Krak standard, "some have the option to upgrade" to Flakk. I guess nothing exists with that option at the moment.

[archonisthebesthqever]

And i was wondering if my De are the army with the lowest anti-aircraft capabilities ;P...poor wolves.

[sturguard]

Nah Dark Eldar are fine in that department, the 145 pt fighter is great, I would take 3 of them, not only can they make short work of other fliers, but with their weaponry they can take out track vehicles as well- not to mention they also have night vision which is great.

[Eldrad]

1 Thing you overlooked, RunePriests can select divination, the base power there is reroll to hit in a unit. Stick in a full unit of LF w/ CML and you have 7 twinlinked missileshots.

[innerwolf]

I wanted to ask you what configuration do you think looks best for a Thunderwolf Lord now power(and frost) weapons have changed. Before 6th I used frost blade+pistol+Russ belt, and he could hunt MeQ, terminators and monstrous creatures. Now, you have to choose between AP3 and regular initiative against MeQ or AP2 and low initiative (risking death by powerfists or monstrous attacks).

[sturguard]

So, you have a 140 pt unit of LF. CML WG is 60 more, RP 100. For 300 pts, I can get 7 shots, 1 hit, reroll 6, 1 more hit. 2 hits, I take 1 HP off a flier, I wouldnt really say that is a worthwhile solution, especially Necrons with a front armor of 13- in that case you might not even get 1 HP.

I am not sure that TWC are worth it. However, if I was going to run someone it would be Pfist, Stormshield and Saga of the Bear. With FNP ignoring everyting but ID, you want to make sure you can kill Nob Bikers and Deathguard, not to mention characters on bikes.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

However rending is AP2, so mark of the wulfen in squads became a better option, and thunderwolves can deal with hard units with volume of attack+rending. However I would still take a storm shield on every one. Terminators can shrug off AP3 fire/power weapons, our 3+ save cavalry cannot.

I think a typical Grey Hunter squad now would look like, 10 man, power axe, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard, dual plasma (one in three dual melta) led by a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with thunder hammer and storm shield. He's always at the front, and a different armour save so all hits have to go on him. Basically the squad has a 2+/3++ until he dies.

[althathir]

runic weapons still working the same should be listed under benefits, they're a ton better than hoods now.

[sturguard]

Freman, I disagree. You are paying 63 pts to protect 15 point GH's. On odds after 6 shots, the Termie dies. In those 6 shots 30 points of GH die. Even if say all 6 shots are ap 3, I think you will find more RP with Storm Caller giving the unit a 5+ save, so essentially 3 GH would die at 45 pts. There is almost no situation where you would come out ahead. If you want a Termie WG in the squad, fine, give him a pfist and ss and keep him in the middle and use him when necessary (like in a challenge with a tooled up lord).

Rending is no better. We have plenty of pfists to kill termie armor and rolling 6's is not consistent enough to count on killing AP 2 with rending. 36 rending attacks nets you 3 ap 2 wounds- you really think that is going to swing a combat? If you are fighting normal termies they save 1, if fighting FNP units they save 1- so really 2 wounds. Power axe I do like in squads now as they are cheaper than fists.

Yes, Runic weapons cancelling psychic powers is a boon. But in an all comers list how much does that help? Necrons. Orks. IG. Dark Eldar.Tau- I mean plenty of armies dont have a strong psychic presence so we didnt have to worry about that before.

I think Thunderwolves are probably not as effective as you think- Paladins, Ork Nob Bikers, Wraiths with whip coils, FnP SM Bikers- all of them cost less than TWC and are most likely more effective. Paying 80 pts for a 2 wound model that will die after 6 wounds is too much in my mind. Heck 10 Fire Warriors rapid firing drops more than one. Its not the high strength weapons you have to worry about, its the normal bolters, scatter lasers, heavy bolters, Tesla guns, the storm shield is just extra points that is going to waste. If you really want to play with TWC, think about taking a unit of 5 with a pfist, then 2 Lords with a 2+/3+, they have a better chance of surviving a round of fire, then switching them out. Heck you are paying 150 pts in storm shields anyways, drop that and you almost have enough for one of the lords.

One thing I am not sure of but I think wolves for Lords are worth it now. Take them as wargear and use them for Look Out Sir rolls. Am I correct in this?

[althathir]

Freman, I disagree. You are paying 63 pts to protect 15 point GH's. On odds after 6 shots, the Termie dies. In those 6 shots 30 points of GH die. Even if say all 6 shots are ap 3, I think you will find more RP with Storm Caller giving the unit a 5+ save, so essentially 3 GH would die at 45 pts. There is almost no situation where you would come out ahead. If you want a Termie WG in the squad, fine, give him a pfist and ss and keep him in the middle and use him when necessary (like in a challenge with a tooled up lord).

Rending is no better. We have plenty of pfists to kill termie armor and rolling 6's is not consistent enough to count on killing AP 2 with rending. 36 rending attacks nets you 3 ap 2 wounds- you really think that is going to swing a combat? If you are fighting normal termies they save 1, if fighting FNP units they save 1- so really 2 wounds. Power axe I do like in squads now as they are cheaper than fists.

Yes, Runic weapons cancelling psychic powers is a boon. But in an all comers list how much does that help? Necrons. Orks. IG. Dark Eldar.Tau- I mean plenty of armies dont have a strong psychic presence so we didnt have to worry about that before.

I think Thunderwolves are probably not as effective as you think- Paladins, Ork Nob Bikers, Wraiths with whip coils, FnP SM Bikers- all of them cost less than TWC and are most likely more effective. Paying 80 pts for a 2 wound model that will die after 6 wounds is too much in my mind. Heck 10 Fire Warriors rapid firing drops more than one. Its not the high strength weapons you have to worry about, its the normal bolters, scatter lasers, heavy bolters, Tesla guns, the storm shield is just extra points that is going to waste. If you really want to play with TWC, think about taking a unit of 5 with a pfist, then 2 Lords with a 2+/3+, they have a better chance of surviving a round of fire, then switching them out. Heck you are paying 150 pts in storm shields anyways, drop that and you almost have enough for one of the lords.

One thing I am not sure of but I think wolves for Lords are worth it now. Take them as wargear and use them for Look Out Sir rolls. Am I correct in this?

I agree with your points about squads and rending. But I think your selling how good runic weapons are short, orks didn't get much better, tau need an update, and IG may start running their psychers (hoods were really good againist them, now not so much and they have more powers available). So its mainly dark eldar & crons, and really we basically don't pay for runic weapons. Psychic abilities look to be a major part of sixth, and we have the second best protection againist them.

TWC aren't bad, in the one game I used them I made some poor decisions when I deployed them (storm shield placement). The other units you listed with the exception of wraiths lose out just as much from wound allocation rules.

Yep

I'd also point out that in your first post you stated that our psychic powers got worse, but really most armies have a much harder time blocking them, and living lightning became better with hullpoints (so did plasma which we can take a ton of).

Also vindicators got quite a bit better. Same for logan wing, which also benefit imensely from the new character rules, to hit rolls of 6 we get to allocate in both shooting and assault which with wolf guard being characters .

On the topic of fliers its also important to know that they can't score, or contest, so I doubt we'll see lists full of fliers cause armies like DW would be a bitch for them.

[sturguard]

Althatir- Great points, like I said I really want to get community space wolf input here.

Tau I wont touch, the FAQ is a band aid for them, their codex will be out shortly, eldar as well we wont get a new one for years and years. Ork Nob Bikers will be all over the place as well as their Meganobz as both a characters like our Wolfguard with 2 wounds- wound allocation for them will be back in a big way, think if our TWC had that kind of wound allocation, also their fliers are very good for the points 18 TL str 6 shots on a Waaagh, say goodbye to a whole unit of LF. IG has answers to everything, this is a shooting edition, they have big guns and lots of fliers. We dont need protection against psykers from these armies, it is a waste of points.

Our spells really took a hit.
Jaws- still works, but any sort of character- including pclaw toting nobs are going to get a Look Out Sir roll.
MH- you get an armor save vs dangerous terrain wounds
Tempest- the book was written before fliers so they didnt include or FAQ, so worthless against the one unit type we need help on (would only be a 1/6 chance of doing something anyways but better than nothing)
Storm Caller- might be our best one now.
LL- need 6's to hit fliers, we have plenty of guns for track vehicles, always did. Would have been nice to FAQ this to let it hit fliers on normal BS.

Really I never had problems getting spells off, except against Eldar and against eldar we still will, with taking checks on 3d6.

Blast weapons got better for everyone, so I wouldnt list that as a perk, ours aren't fast or cheaper or more resilient so really it isn't a SW perk. People say cover got nerfed, when in fact there is more cover in 6th. Stealth, Shrouded, Invisibility, Ruins and hills are still 4+ but people can buy fortifications- blast templates scatter more, to me they really arent that impressive.

[sturguard]

Some advantages I am thinking of-
Drop Pods since armies have to put 50% of their units on the board and we need to get close since Night Fight will happen often.

Mixed armor Wolf Guard squads, say 3 Termies and 4 PA in a drop pod. Stick the termies out front for the added protection- but don't load them with options that increase points as they are a shooting unit. Ie 3 Termies with combimelta and poweraxe, 38 pts each, or more my favorite, 3 combiplasma and give the power armored guys 3 combimeltas.

Combimeltas have more range when coming out of a drop pod. I assume disembarking from a drop pod is just like a rhino. The pod comes down and you disembark up to 6 inches away from it.

[althathir]

Jaws doesn't cause wounds read look out sir again

storm caller is decent but I'd rather take the new powers

LL - glancings are much better now, they don't stop a vehicle from shooting but they will kill it.

For vindies its not so much an advantage that only we can have as much as being an additional tool, that we may need. DW is gonna be awesome, same for termies in general (storm bolter fist ones got a lot better as well). I ran a vindie cause I like it, now its gonna be stronger option.


I like the drop-pod point, and notice thats a limit on fliers as well, cause they have to start in reserve .

[sturguard]

Althathir-
If running a semi mech list, I think Storm Caller is the way to go, especially if you want to run a Land Raider- give the Raider 5+ and the Raider will give the rhinos behind a cover save. Remember if shooting is Line of Sight, Fliers are often going to ignore normal cover saves as they can see over intervening models.

Why did storm bolter/fists get better?

I think Drop Pods with Deathwind launchers might be worth it. They are only str 5 but large blast, the enemy has to setup half his army and that str 5 is enough to pen side armor.

[althathir]

Althathir-
If running a semi mech list, I think Storm Caller is the way to go, especially if you want to run a Land Raider- give the Raider 5+ and the Raider will give the rhinos behind a cover save. Remember if shooting is Line of Sight, Fliers are often going to ignore normal cover saves as they can see over intervening models.

Why did storm bolter/fists get better?

I think Drop Pods with Deathwind launchers might be worth it. They are only str 5 but large blast, the enemy has to setup half his army and that str 5 is enough to pen side armor.

Fair, storm caller isn't bad. I think we need to wait for the dust to settly on fliers though, I've only played a couple of games but the only being able to pivot once up to 90 degrees really hurts them. That said there are some really awesome new powers we should take advantage of. Telekinesis is really good for wolves IMO and divination is solid (gets fangs a re-roll againist fliers at least).

Storm bolter/fists are better cause power weapons dropped to ap 3.

Droppods are going be good in this edition I don't think there is any question about that, plus if we hug their deployement zone their fliers will have to fly over what ever dropped.

[sturguard]

Remember, fliers cant turn once they move on the board, so an Abarge pivots and moves his 18 inches- he cant see the units in the pods as he is either facing a side board edge or the back board edge. However all my storm bolters or bolters can see his rear armor

I dont take expensive pfists in my termie units. I take a few but I think the greatest advantage of SW termies is they are cheap and have combiweapons.

[althathir]

Remember, fliers cant turn once they move on the board, so an Abarge pivots and moves his 18 inches- he cant see the units in the pods as he is either facing a side board edge or the back board edge. However all my storm bolters or bolters can see his rear armor

I dont take expensive pfists in my termie units. I take a few but I think the greatest advantage of SW termies is they are cheap and have combiweapons.

Exactly and that may be a reason to consider not using the deathwind launchers.

I know we won't but other space marine armies should at least consider them, assault nerfs make thunderhammers worse to degree and we should have some power axes in with our termies while we're on the subject, not on everyone but ap 2 in CC is at premium, and our base termies are dirt cheap.

[sturguard]

Yes, I will take a few SS/power ax combos- I was using just power swords to keep them cheap, but heck with the storm shield, I will take +2 str and strike last. 2/3rds of the time Njal would be good in a drop pod list- drop him down, shoot the 50% of the guys army, hopefully roll a 2 or 3 and the guy either has -1 BS to essentially all his shots (24 inches) or his units all move as in difficult terrain. Njal might be worth his points if you rolled the dice and could select a power like if you rolled a 3 on turn 3 (total result 6) you could choose any event 1-6 on the chart.