>hull points-epic fail GW!

[mughi3]

My gaming group sat down and spent a good half the day saturday going through the new rulebook. alot of it looks very nice with a homage to second editon rules as well as some fantasy imports.

Let me say first off that i understand GWs business model. they push the new shiny models via rules making the more traditonal choices less desirable. we usually refer to it as the "nerf bat". however given how our playtesting games went tonight i am going to say they tossed out the nerf bat and went straight to thunder hammer.

There are lots of things about 6th ed i like but thats for another thread-

The main point of contention here is the death of ground vehicles-

With vehicles the pro's are pretty narrow now.
.you can move always and shoot all guns- snap fire when neccisary(BS1)

The down side-
.you look at a vehicle funny and it dies. there is no need to even do any real damage given the hull point system. they have effectively given vehicles wound points and then made it very easy to inflict wounds in addition to actual damage on a damage chart.-double the ding

.it does not matter how hard they are to hit in CC now, it doesn't even matter much how far they have moved...now it is all about WS1-IE you hit vehicles on 3s at the worst. basically if you assault any vehicle including walkers they die.

.the actual damage chart got scarier thanks to changes to AP1/2

.it makes some vehicle upgrades pointless as my eldar playing friend discovered...whats the point of spending points on hollowfields when i just glance you to death?(thats a mere 3 hits against AV12)


As a group we are mulling over what to do to return even a margin of resiliancy to vehicles in general(i lost an ironclad dread walking through a carniverous forest and almost lost a second in the same spot). as it stands now anything that isn't a flyer(harder to shoot and cannot be assaulted) will die the moment you put it on the table. i lost nearly my entire armies vehicles to glancing hits that did no actual damage.


We are looking at 2 options-
.increase the hull points by X3 to give vehicles a fighting chance or just go back to the 5th ed damage chart while using the new AP rules.


As it stand now i see the game being dominated by bikes, jump infantry, monsterous creatures and fliers

[Kijamon]

I think you're entirely 100% wrong but I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I love the new rules.

Land raiders should not take 12 glances to die. Tanks should not be very survivable and should be supported by a fair bit of infantry.

I hope your gaming group finds a solution so you enjoy your games in future though, good luck.

[brightblade]

I think you're entirely 100% wrong but I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I love the new rules.

Land raiders should not take 12 glances to die. Tanks should not be very survivable and should be supported by a fair bit of infantry.

I hope your gaming group finds a solution so you enjoy your games in future though, good luck.

This. In a bucket.

[Chief Librarian Zypher]

This. In a bucket.

Agreed. ..... and Walkers have a WS, so you don't always hit them on a 3 btw

[Spiney Norman]

I think you're entirely 100% wrong but I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I love the new rules.

Land raiders should not take 12 glances to die. Tanks should not be very survivable and should be supported by a fair bit of infantry.

I hope your gaming group finds a solution so you enjoy your games in future though, good luck.

And I don't think you've really thought through how easy it is to glance a vehicle.

12 Necron warriors rapid firing at a Landraider, Zahndrek gives them Tank hunters

24 shots, 16 hits, 2.7 glances,
tank hunter rerolls, an additional 2.2 glances, on average a total of approx 5 glancing hits... Dead land raider, from a 12 man troop squad costing about half the value of the tank.

I'm not suggesting vehicles should be as tough to kill as they were previously, but you may as well no bring any vehicles when you're fighting Necrons. Don't even get started on the voltaic staff, for 25 pts you have a cryptek carrying a gun that can wreck a 3HP vehicle every turn.

Flyers stand more of a chance because they are so damn hard to hit for most things, but again Necrons have the perfect answer: CCB and Doom Scythes will rip apart any enemy flyers in short order. And this is me as a Necron player talking.

Elsewhere any squad with Haywire grenades will pretty much wreck any non-flyer vehicle in one turn of combat.

[Scammel]

So much hyperbole. The trade-off hull points offer is that vehicles can remain operative for much longer as glances don't render them unable to shoot half the time. Furthermore, the vehicles more vulnerable to this kind of destruction are cheaper anyway - if you're trying to get 3 glances on a Chimera I'll happily be gunning the engines of the remaining four right at you. The more expensive vehicles are harder to glance anyway, have fun getting 4 glances on a Land Raider and it's ilk turn one.

basically if you assault any vehicle including walkers they die.

Including walkers? When most of 'em boast armour 12?

[xxRavenxx]

I personally love hullpoints. No more penetrating six times only to fail to get a high roll to finish something off. It now has a limit, which is important on AV14 especially.

[sonsoftherock]

Note also that the damage chart is now worse for any weapon worse than AP2, cover is easier to get (25%) and unless I am mistaken vehicles can now claim cover saves for being behind infantry models.

I agree that Hull points make them easier to kill but I think a few games will be needed to see how it all shakesdown.

[mughi3]

Ok let me hit this point by point
"1.Land raiders should not take 12 glances to die. Tanks should not be very survivable and should be supported by a fair bit of infantry. "

a glancing hit does minimal damage i counter that it should not take 4 paint scratches to kill a 300 point model without actually having to work at it.

the point of armored vehicles is to make them more survivable, as it stands now a guardsman has a better survival rate in 6th ed than a land raider.



"2.So much hyperbole. The trade-off hull points offer is that vehicles can remain operative for much longer as glances don't render them unable to shoot half the time. Furthermore, the vehicles more vulnerable to this kind of destruction are cheaper anyway - if you're trying to get 3 glances on a Chimera I'll happily be gunning the engines of the remaining four right at you. The more expensive vehicles are harder to glance anyway, have fun getting 4 glances on a Land Raider and it's ilk turn one."

So much ignorance. have you even play tested it yet?
it is extremely easy to get glancing hits. my land raider achilles which usually at least survives most games died to eldar pulse lasers on turn 2 that wasnt even a large part of my opponants firepower. i returned the favor with tactical marines assaulting his warp hunter the following turn with grenades and a power weapon didn'y even need to use my PF attacks. a chimera can now die to bolter fire. what your failing to get is that yes they can move and shoot-cool beans, however the moment they get shot at they die so they do not stay "operative" longer.

"3.Including walkers? When most of 'em boast armour 12?"

grenades and melta bombs plant on WS at initiative(well MB are unweildy so I1 for them, not that it matters much given the would allocation system in 6th) and immobilised dreads are hit on rear armor. remember you do not actually have to do any real damage to them just glance them a mere 3 times-dead walkers in 1 turn of CC.


"4.I personally love hullpoints. No more penetrating six times only to fail to get a high roll to finish something off. It now has a limit, which is important on AV14 especially. "

A vehicle is comparatively expensive and has effectively 1 wound so yes i expect you to have to work at it to kill it compared to a monsterous creature that keeps on unhunged until you take all 4-6 of its wounds. the problem now it that you do "wounds" without actually doing any damage to every vehicle. and the wound count is extemely small giving vehicles no resliance and a waste of resources to even place on the table.

"5 How do hull points work in 6th ed? "

every vehicle has 2-4 hull points most have 3, thereis no glance damage table now a glance-loose a hull point, a pen loose a hull point AND take additonal damage. effectively your vehicle dies the turn it hits the table. the only reason any of my vehicles lasted to turn 6 is that i had 3 tech marines running around with servitors trying to save anything i could that didn't die immediately.

"6.OP...have you guys actually played a game yet?

At least give it a try and see how the thing works as a whole. "

Been playing 40K for over 10 years, i run late night gaming at my local store, i am usually there for 14+ hours so yes we got several play test games in as well as my ability to compare my 5th ed experience with how that translates to 6th.

My last game of 5th against necrons that went 7 turns last weekend which i won by a 2KP to 7KP margin i would have lost on turn 3 by the 6th ed rules simply based on the number of glancing hits i took since i run a themed mechanised siege list.

"7.That said, I haven't actually played with it yet, and presumably the designers played SOME (maybe?) so maybe I am just radically mis-estimating the effect. "

you misunderstanding GW marketing strategy-they need to sell new models that = flyers in 6th. flyers are harder to hit, and cannot be assaulted unless they go to 'hover mode' maing them far more surivable than any ground vehicle. they also bumped up the effectivenessof bikes and jump infantry=more sales.

A person like me who has built 7 armies over the years and still retains a 5,000+ point DIY themed marine force doesnt need to buy anything else.....unless of course you completely destroy the viability of my army build to try and force me to spend more. i am not willing to do the latter so i will play 5th or i will play 6th with a tweaked damage table or not play it at all. i have lots of other game systems i could be playing that dont make me feel like i am getting shafted.

[Vepr]

In some ways I feel your pain. As a tyranid player I spent the first part of 5th edition trying to build lists around nothing but hive guard just to have a bit of chance to compete with the endless mech spam. I finally said screw it and shelved my nids. That being said there are some armies that have little to no chance against vehicle walls so something had to be done. They might have gone too far but so far I do not think so and armies like nids still don't have an easy time dealing with vehicles but they at least have a chance.

[mughi3]

In some ways I feel your pain. As a tyranid player I spent the first part of 5th edition trying to build lists around nothing but hive guard just to have a bit of chance to compete with the endless mech spam. I finally said screw it and shelved my nids. That being said there are some armies that have little to no chance against vehicle walls so something had to be done. They might have gone too far but so far I do not think so and armies like nids still don't have an easy time dealing with vehicles but they at least have a chance.

Actually your nids are quite better in 6th at hurting armor. all your big bugs get double strength(up to 10) and re-roll armor pen against vehicles for half the number of attacks in additon to a +1 on the damage chart. what my friend who runs a mostly shooty nid army is lamenting is the loss in effectivenss of the boneswords on his warriors. he will run from terminators now instead of eating them.

I also disagree with the statemnt of armies having troubles against vehciles. i have played for a very long time. there are many anti-armor options in every codex, its up to the players to choose to utalise them or not.

[BooTMGSG]

as it stands now a guardsman has a better survival rate in 6th ed than a land raider.

A lasgun up to a tesla destructor can kill a guardsman. They can not destroy a landraider. So no.

You need Str8 minimum to glance on a Landraider

Hull points seems good, (it may even take out the random from vehicle killing) Glances don't stop the tank from fireing or moving, but they do add up.
All in all seems a nice trade off.

[RandomThoughts]

.it does not matter how hard they are to hit in CC now, it doesn't even matter much how far they have moved...now it is all about WS1-IE you hit vehicles on 3s at the worst. basically if you assault any vehicle including walkers they die.

You still have to glance it. My Scorpions just might get a chance to kill it with the claw (wound on 6s!) before it munches through the whole unit. My Banshees still can' hurt it. Sorry, but what you say is just not true.

.the actual damage chart got scarier thanks to changes to AP1/2

Did it? Really?
AP 1 and 2 (and -)are pretty much identical to what thy were, AP 3 to AP 6 actually got worse.

.it makes some vehicle upgrades pointless as my eldar playing friend discovered...whats the point of spending points on hollowfields when i just glance you to death?(thats a mere 3 hits against AV12)

I'll give you that, this is absolutely true. However, Eldar have a 6 year old codex, a new one is around the corner, so just don't take Holo-Fields anymore, it's not the first time and it won't be the last a new edition made a piece of wargear obsolete.

.increase the hull points by X3 to give vehicles a fighting chance or just go back to the 5th ed damage chart while using the new AP rules.

You familiar with the Eldar Dreadnought, renamed a long time ago for some weird reason as Wraithlord?
It used to be the same thing as a Space Marine Dreadnought. Same role, same survivability. I assume that is why he got T8, which (in theory) needs the same roll to wound that gets you a glancing hit against AV12 (leaving aside S5 and both poison and rending/snipers, which for some weird reason eat up Wraithlords).

It also got three wounds. Will you triple that as well and make him 9 wounds?

"Anti Tank weapons being efficient at killing tanks sound like a positive to me. "


No- it is any weapon killing tanks easily-it's down right stupid and a horrible meta swing for the game.

.Adding the +1 damage for AP2 and +2 for AP1 and leave the damage chart as it was in 5th would have been fine. especially now that cover is weaker.

First of all, the chart stayed exactly the same for AP 1 & 2 and got worse for AP 3 to 6, and secondly, while cover saves are weaker in general (that is, if you're not using ruins which still give 4+), it's also easier to get cover, with 25% of the vehicle obscured instead of the 50% we used to have,

I support your right to nerd-rage, but please get your facts straight.

[tsuruki]

So far i really disagree with the disdain for hull points.

Are you certain you read the damage table right? And that youre using ALL the rules in the book? If you just pick out a few rules to playtest a few at a time you wont get the big picture.

Heres my first 6th ed experience with vehicles:

Dualwing (heavy on the terminators) versus orks (heavy on boyz).

2 Landspeeders on marine side. (2 Hull points each)

Blitza bommer & Dakkajet on ork side. (3 hull points each)


We rolled and got a night fight, it lasted to round 3, without which I strongly believe my ork horde would have been kept back by sheer weight of fire and the new allocation rules.

Round 1, DA shoot lots, but are rendered impotent by night fight. Orks move forward, glance one land-speeder.

Round 2, DA consolidate on objektives and keep the pressure on, still held back by nightfight. Orks keep moving, this time they glance both speeders.

Round 3, DA outflank their first bike unit, at which point we realise charging is forbidden for units arriving from reserve. Orks too busy pressuring terminators and killing bikes to finish off the speeders.

Round 4, Terminators roll terribly for saves and orks start winning, we figure out that the challenge rules are terrible for nobs, both ork flyers lose some hull to glances but saved from melta death by evasive movement.

Round 5, first speeder dies, absolutely horrible saves see to the death of all terminators and bikers. DA give.

This game we witnessed 6 glances total, which would normally have rendered the vehicles in this given game useless, but instead they kept firing. The flyers survived mainly via their luck and speed, but in this given example they had no opportunities to shine. The speeders, who now benefit from jink saves were by far better than the old edition, normally they would have gone down to glances, or at least rendered harmless.


My take on hull points:
Heavy tanks = even heavier!
Medium tanks = Same survivability, with more reliability.
Light tanks = Less survivability, with more reliability.

Small arms can no longer render a vehicle impotent the same way they did, a big factor in making vehicles of any and all kinds much more useful for attack purposes.
But now that they get slowly torn apart, vehicles have attained a semblance of realism, no longer the all-or-nothing-missile-to-the-fuel-tank.
Light vehicles are certainly less survivable, but they still do the job they were meant to do, "transport the infantry and support the infantry", not the irrational "Replace the infantry".

[big squig]

Seems a bit strange that you haven't even played a game yet, but you are declaring the death of vehicles...

[BramGaunt]

Ok let me hit this point by point
a glancing hit does minimal damage i counter that it should not take 4 paint scratches to kill a 300 point model without actually having to work at it.
the point of armored vehicles is to make them more survivable, as it stands now a guardsman has a better survival rate in 6th ed than a land raider.

How do you come up with this?

Where do you take from that glancing hits do minimal damage? They just don't do any serious damage. A glancing hit can range from a scratch to a fracture in plating to torn of armour plates, which leave the vehicle open for other attacks. Framing could be bent, plates dislocated, etc. The crew is unaffected (or even unaware) of this damage, as the vehicle responds normally. just imagine a coconut, same principle as a tank. Strong shell to protect it. Now, you can burst it open with one precise strike of a hammer, but if you don't hit it accuratly, you'll probably end up not opening it. Sooner or later it will break open though.

Also, where are vehicles expensive? For 150 Points I get either a Leman Russ Battletank or 10 Space Marines with basic gear. Tell me who is capable of taking and dealing more damage. For 200 Points I get 10 'naked' Terminators, or a Monolith. Again, who can take and deal more damage?

Flyers are by far not as strong as you suggest, since their armour is pretty poor and there are plenty of ways to deal with them. Also, if you complain about the sheer ammount of glancing hits a Necron Army deals... well, that's the army concept. Necrons can by far dish out more glancing hits then ANY other army. Remember 4th Edition when Necron Warriors were actually able to one-shot Land Raiders? And how the whole amry suddenly couldn't deal with vehicles at all?

Mechanized Armies were to strong in 5th. GW dealt with the problem perfectly.

[chaospantz]

5th ed was the edition of parking lots. You had to make sure every squad that could take a vehicle did. Standard DE list had a pile of venoms and raiders, every SM army had plenty of rhinos/razorbacks to safely get their squads across the table, and I can't be the only one who rembers the standard Chimera 'ardboyz list for IG. Rember being able to capture an objective without ever getting out of your ride, after all why would you when its so much safer being in the vehicle. Glances don't matter much because unless they are adding to their dammage roll theirs only a 1 in 3 chance they will actualy break anything. Hull points are awsome because glances actualy matter, all the mid str weaponry that no one bothered with because it was to anti infintry and wasn't going to score you the pen roll you needed are getting a second look. It's easy to get a cover save in this editon when you actualy get behind cover, wich is easer to do now because you can chance a dangerous terrain roll to get an extra 6" to put you behind cover, and even that can be fixed by taking a dozer blade. No more guts up the middle with a 4+ smoke to get you by. Vehicles are still king, look at flyers, something that it looks like most armies are going to get at least 1 of. 6th ed is a drastic change from 5th. The core is still there but the subtle changes have altered the game and the way we build our list.

[indigoon]

Lol at captain buthurt, my mech tau are having no problems and that is WITH my disruption pod nerf. 3 hullpoints for a transport is fine, instead of being stun locked I can cruise around for a few turns even against my mate who runs guard with a downright ***** amount of lascannons. The reason all your vehicles are dying first and second turn is because most people are still fielding un altered 5th lists that had as much anti vehicle power as was possible to squeeze out of their dexes. And yes you will loose to necrons as they will probably be the grey nights of 6th. Also learn how to get a cover save/put in reserve and maybe kill some anti tank first turn?

[KitKat]

a chimera can now die to bolter fire.

If you're exposing your rear armour to a unit of marines, you're doing it wrong. Also a Chimera could be killed by bolters in 5th so that's a moot point.

[mughi3]

If you're exposing your rear armour to a unit of marines, you're doing it wrong. Also a Chimera could be killed by bolters in 5th so....

a chimera side armor is 10 and you could only kill a chimera with bolters in 5th through cumulative damage, now you just have to annoy it.