Grey Knights Tactica 6th Ed

[GodlessM]

Hmm, well anything organic wouldn't suit the Grey Knights' style at all. If it is just the Paladin that hangs out of the cockpit that bothers you, you could always not stick him in and try give it a different front, sort of like a really big Dreadnought. Or cover that front and give him a head on top to look kinda like Optimus Prime.

[lantzkev]

if you have two jokaero, two servitors, that leaves just enough room to add in 8 psykers.

[Your Mum Rang]

I've been thinking and 8 Psykers for that magic S10 is probably worth adding 20pts to a unit from 6 (what I use).

[orik]

Hmm, well anything organic wouldn't suit the Grey Knights' style at all. If it is just the Paladin that hangs out of the cockpit that bothers you, you could always not stick him in and try give it a different front, sort of like a really big Dreadnought. Or cover that front and give him a head on top to look kinda like Optimus Prime.

Not a bad idea, and sounds awsom. always liked transformers. If I ever get a dread knight, might have to give it a go

on a nother note, I've put together 3 posible builds for my allied GK detachment to see what everybody thinks

they are

Build A
Coteaz
Henchmen x5 (Jokoro, 3x plasma cannon servitor, 2x plasma gun acolyte's)
Purifiers x5 (2x incinerators, nemesis warding staff, falchion, daemonhammer)
total 375pts

Build B
Coteaz
Henchmen x9 (4x crusaders, 5x deathcult assassins, chemira)
Purifiers x5 (2x incinerators, nemesis warding staff, falchion, daemonhammer)
Total 442pts

Build C
Crowe
Purifiers x5 (2x incinerators, nemesis warding staff, falchion, daemonhammer)
vindicare assassin
total 447pts

So, which one would be most effective?
also open to other suggestions

[GodlessM]

orik, I can't speak for everyone, but I reckon the reason you have gotten little feedback is because which detachment is better depends on the Guard list. Post it and then we can help.

[orik]

k then, fair enough, I'll make an effort to post a list. Just wanted to see if I was on teh right track, that was all

[lantzkev]

That and the list feedback forum is that way =====>

[orik]

Sorry about posting those lists hear, but as I said, just wanted to get a general idea, and to see if I was on the right track without making a new thread.

Anyway, I've managed to put together two IG lists, both of which are I'm also intending on including allied GK. They can be found hear
Just wondering if any of you would be able to provide advice on the Allied detachment

[El_Machinae]

Terminator Justicar doesn't have an extra attack.

Yeah. Huh. I wonder how I made that mistake. I must've been thinking about the GKSS. That's embarrassing!

[Chair126]

I've been thinking and 8 Psykers for that magic S10 is probably worth adding 20pts to a unit from 6 (what I use).

i thnk s10 with ap1 is pretty big against parkin lots and vehicles in general. full strength alwys is massive. without ld10 hoods as well more reliable casting

3++ just did their initial look at gknights for 6th - allies seem to be the general consensus there

[unforgiven555]

3++ just did their initial look at gknights for 6th - allies seem to be the general consensus there

I agree with Kirby. Coteaz is amazing. Modelling for DCA is key now.

An allied blob guard squad can give you ranged support (though u can't stick an inquisitor to twin link the weapons like you can with runepriests unfortunately). Although with Coteaz I'm not so sure this role is as necessary.
Placing objectives AFTER choosing sides means that a lot of the time your opponent's just going to place his in the back corner - as with yours. Having a few cheap acolytes to go to ground on an objective is very nice. Guard do order for +2, but you start to add up the points for a couple of lascannons. A blob of 30 with lord inquisitor (2+ look out) means you're looking at about 280-330 points for 3-4 lascannons as well as access to a valk which you can throw a specialist squad deepstriking on an objective to contest lategame.


With regards to dreadnoughts there are some significant downsides:
- They're good against rhinos which are still necessary against blast.
- Against fliers you're removing about .5-.75 a turn on avg (w00t!).
- they no longer deal with nob bikers... and I suspect lootas and nobs are going to be a common sight - orks with lots of boys aren't the easiest thing to deal with unless we're going paladins.
- They're not very strong against terminators, which I suspect will appear more and our shooting needs to deal with
- They are good against DE
- They are good against Chaos (which may change shortly)
- They are good against other marines that aren't in LR.
- They're not bad against necrons, will on average remove 1 and a quarter hull points.

Compared to 3 Jakaero and 9 acolytes (which are scoring with Coteaz) with +1S, double the chance to destroy (although less 40% the chance to hit) and AP2 the choice is not as obvious as it once was. With an inquisitor the guns are TL too (divination) take 2-3 monkeys in cover and you're looking at a decent unit to sit back and hold objectives.

As far as for:

1 Belial, Master of the Deathwing
1 Deathwing Terminator Squad, Cyclone missile launcher, Apothecary, Company Banner
(420 points)

It's slightly more efficient than our terms.

With regards to the interceptor gun.
It's not going to do very much against all flier spam armies. It's not going to do much against flying mosterous creatures (Ap4). And the one time it could shine (against the storm raven with death star) it's only got one turn on average doing 1 SP.

[Aluinn]

I agree with Kirby. Coteaz is amazing. Modelling for DCA is key now.

An allied blob guard squad can give you ranged support (though u can't stick an inquisitor to twin link the weapons like you can with runepriests unfortunately). Although with Coteaz I'm not so sure this role is as necessary.
Placing objectives AFTER choosing sides means that a lot of the time your opponent's just going to place his in the back corner - as with yours. Having a few cheap acolytes to go to ground on an objective is very nice. Guard do order for +2, but you start to add up the points for a couple of lascannons. A blob of 30 with lord inquisitor (2+ look out) means you're looking at about 280-330 points for 3-4 lascannons as well as access to a valk which you can throw a specialist squad deepstriking on an objective to contest lategame.


With regards to dreadnoughts there are some significant downsides:
- They're good against rhinos which are still necessary against blast.
- Against fliers you're removing about .5-.75 a turn on avg (w00t!).
- they no longer deal with nob bikers... and I suspect lootas and nobs are going to be a common sight - orks with lots of boys aren't the easiest thing to deal with unless we're going paladins.
- They're not very strong against terminators, which I suspect will appear more and our shooting needs to deal with
- They are good against DE
- They are good against Chaos (which may change shortly)
- They are good against other marines that aren't in LR.
- They're not bad against necrons, will on average remove 1 and a quarter hull points.

Compared to 3 Jakaero and 9 acolytes (which are scoring with Coteaz) with +1S, double the chance to destroy (although less 40% the chance to hit) and AP2 the choice is not as obvious as it once was. With an inquisitor the guns are TL too (divination) take 2-3 monkeys in cover and you're looking at a decent unit to sit back and hold objectives.

As far as for:

1 Belial, Master of the Deathwing
1 Deathwing Terminator Squad, Cyclone missile launcher, Apothecary, Company Banner
(420 points)

It's slightly more efficient than our terms.

With regards to the interceptor gun.
It's not going to do very much against all flier spam armies. It's not going to do much against flying mosterous creatures (Ap4). And the one time it could shine (against the storm raven with death star) it's only got one turn on average doing 1 SP.

I agree with you on most of this but I don't agree with Kirby on most of what he said on 3++. His comments on Psybacks and Psyflemen are off IMO--Sure, they're still "useful" (i.e. they can accomplish things; whether they're worth their points is another question), but Fortitude is now almost meaningless whereas before it was game-changing for the shooty GK vehicles, and I think he severely underestimates the fragility of these things given hull points. The comment that really stood out here was the one wherein he cited 3 HP on Dreads as a positive, when 3 HP is both standard for anything that walks or rolls and pretty frickin' easy to strip off on AV12 vehicle. Back-field positioning on Psyflemen may help a little, but every mission having Night Fight means that you can't even reliably do that (remember that searchlights light up the user as well), and furthermore it really isn't such great protection as he makes out: Plenty of things can easily get shots on back-board units (flyers come to mind ... and believe it or not, there are times when Deep Strike is good).

Basically, I think they're not horrible, but were nerfed much harder than Kirby even begins to suggest.

Also, I think he seems not to realize what Henchmen can really do, mostly in neglecting the potential of Warrior Acolytes with three cheap plasma guns and "free" Prescience everywhere (okay, well, on two HQs ). DCA are still awesome; Crusaders got a big buff that few people have given enough attention IMO, in their ability to take axes, which just about makes them the best anti-Terminator combat unit in the game given Termies' low quantity of attacks and the Crusaders' 3++. Add in grenade or Hammerhand shenanigans and it gets better, but of course that applies all around.

(A note on Hammerhand: It will probably be tempting to take Prescience instead of this for anyone that can do so, but if you already have one psyker using Discipline of Divination, then it is quite possibly worth keeping a Hammerhand-using Inquisitor/GK character around because the two can be stacked on the same unit, whilst two instances of Prescience cannot.)

My final point on Kirby's comments is that he doesn't give Paladins half the credit the deserve, and seems to have ignored or not noticed that they are characters and can still do wound allocation shenanigans, albeit by different means. Yes lance spam still deals with them well, but lance spam will become far less common once fewer vehicles start to be taken. Point-for-point, taking range and ability to fire on the move into account, splinter weapons are more efficient at killing normal Terminators, so even a meta dominated by Termies wouldn't encourage continued heavy lance spam. However, Paladins are not vulnerable to the efficient means of killing normal Termies, namely either shooting lots of plasma guns at them or forcing massive numbers of saves, for the obvious reason that they have two wounds and can spread wounds around the unit if they make their 4+ Look Out, Sirs.

As a nit-picky thing I also have to say that 3 Jokaero in a unit is inefficient: 2 is always ideal, statistically. 3 starts to produce not only diminishing returns but actual detriment, in that it denies access to one of the table results entirely and also increases your likelihood of rolling up nothing--a double-roll that gets you two more double-rolls results in no bonus at all. 2 Jokaero dang near eliminates the chance of not getting a bonus to the unit, and still affords a good chance at two bonuses. (3 or more would be fine, I guess, if Jokaero were worth their points for weapon options alone, but I'm not convinced they are, awesome as they may be, and even considering that 6th made them better with the ability to snap fire the lascannon and multi-melta, and deal D3 hits to charging units with the heavy flamer.) Finally, the more Jokaero you take, the less dudes they're buffing in the most meaningful ways, assuming you're taking a max-size unit.

The ideal shooty Henchmen unit, according to my maths and experience, is something like:

-2 Jokaero
-10 Warrior Acolytes with either 7 bolters and 3 plasma, or simply 10 bolters; IMO carapace armor is also now very worthwhile with the loss of so much 4+ cover, the improvement to so many AP5 weapons the enemy may have, and the chance that the monkeys may turn it into a 3+, but can be skimped on if you prefer--it's one of those things that is (in 6th) so balanced in cost that it's as worth taking as it is worth skipping, I think

(Note: I should explain that the reason for anyone not to take 3 plasma guns, though they are awesome, is that these guys aren't the toughest hombres in the universe, and sometimes those guns kill them when you kind of need every one of those 12 models to ... not be killing themselves, survival being of utmost importance for scoring units, and also because the bolters have a decent chance to get Rending, which makes them more efficient--plasma guns benefit very little from Rending unless they're shooting at a Land Raider.)

Servitors have always been and probably always shall be naff compared to Acolytes and Jokaero IMO; certainly I think this remains true in 6th.

[Exc20002001]

Hi there

I was just wondering can Deny the Witch be used against warp rift?

[lantzkev]

does it target the unit? if so yes.

[Exc20002001]

Thanks it does.

If say 3 of my greater daemons are in hit by it (Not in a unit) would I be able to deny the witch 3 times?

If so would one negation prevent the attack from happening? I would presume so (no such thing as a half flamer?)

[lantzkev]

pretty sure you only get one.

[orik]

dose Coteaz's 'I've been expecting you' rule get passed onto any transport he is in?

[Exc20002001]

"Corteaz and his Unit" (P45)"

Guess so

[Gedara]

Aren't Halberds I3 +1S AP2 now rather than I6?

[lantzkev]

Aren't Halberds I3 +1S AP2 now rather than I6?

Why would you think that? What does the greyknight entry say it is?