Grey Knights Tactica 6th Ed

[Gorsameth]

Again, you are making assumptions, all of which are based on 5th edition. It doesn't matter what was in the list traditionally, this is a new edition. As for long range AT, people are expressing this a lot, but it's looking very like apart from possibly Pred SPAM there won't be many tanks in most armies, an thoe that will will be cheap transport like Rhinos. So to answer your question, nothing, because there aren't enough vehicles in the game anymore to warrant worrying about long range AT.

While you are correct that this is a new edition and the game has changed I don't think you should just throw away everything you have learned from 5th.
You say there will be less tanks so you don't need to bring long range AT.

So how will you deal with 5 razorbacks, 3 dreadnoughts and 2 storm ravens when you switched your army to deal with infantry "because there wont be enough tanks".
Meanwhile those tanks safe from your anti infantry fire while they shred your infantry just as hard.

Yes tanks are easier to kill with AT fire but unless you still bring said AT fire they are just as survivable and there ability to kill isn't diminished.
People talk about changed metas but due to the nature of tanks and there immunity to small arms fire bringing less AT is very dangerous.

[steevn]

the way i see it :

5th edition evolved towards mech spam because it was the most durable way to invest points in an armylist. but the toptier list had something to take care of infantry (2+/3+/4+ saves), vehicles AV10-14, shooty lists and cc lists while they provide a spamming that makes their army hard to counter

6th edition will evolve into "something else" spam once we all find out in a couple of months what will be the most durable way to spend your points on. the new toptier list will also have something to take care of infantry (2+/3+/4+ saves), vehicles AV10-14, flyers, shooty lists and cc lists again spamming something to diminish the opponent's ability to hurt their own units

are vehicles now crap : NO, are the not as durable as before : YES, will we still see them YES.

[Night429]

I believe the argument being made is that Storm Ravens are the new long-range anti-tank for a Draigowing list instead of Psyflemen. Load 'em up with Lascannons.

[steevn]

I believe the argument being made is that Storm Ravens are the new long-range anti-tank for a Draigowing list instead of Psyflemen. Load 'em up with Lascannons.

I'd rather say storm ravens get to replace the dreadnoughts because:
- we don't need that much at (transportkilling/tanksupressing) firepower anymore
- dreads are weaker with the hp thing, our fortitude is not that impressive anymore, our aegis on the other hand...
- we need aa
- we can surely use a good flyer with transportoptions
- dreadknights got better competing for the same heavyslots
- venerable dreads are just sad

Personally i'll try draigowing with 2 knights then maybe 2 ravens depending on how many flyers i'll face overhere

[itcamefromthedeep]

in fact, draigowing lack of mobility is good against all the flyers cause of their 90° rotation rule. standing in the middle of the field prevent them to be targeted each tour.

You need to cover enough of the middle of the board that they can't move 18" form the side and sit between 18" and whatever the range on their guns is (often 24"). If they can park in that 18"-X" range and you don't close in on them then they get a second turn of firing at you.

6th edition will evolve into "something else" spam once we all find out in a couple of months what will be the most durable way to spend your points on.

It took over 18 months to figure out how good mech was (IG was nothing special until the LEafblower showed up a year after the book dropped), and it wasn't until the later books that mech truly took off (SW, GK, BA).

In a few months we might get an equivalent of the Nob Bikerz fiasco of early-mid 5e. We won't know what the meta will look like in 2 years until we get there, and to make any serious predictions before any books come out in this edition is ... dubious.

[steevn]

Agreed, I think that 6th edition caused meta changes will become apparent in the next say 4 months, others changes are codex related. Nob bikers abused wound allocation for the first time. Leafblower abused mech in combo with cheap at. The rest abused their codex rules in combination with more efficient 5th tricks/mechanics that were known by then ( the superior greyhunters and longfangs in good vehicles, the fnp assault marines and fast vehicles and well the psyfleman and palladins ). From then on everyone kept adapting offcourse. The game would not be terribly exciting if all was clear in just a year.

Now for 6th and the greyknights : people participating in tournament play will always take the most cost effective Unit to get the job done, those will not be completely the same as last edition, only time and practice will tell. I'm looking forward to the reports back us gk players on every level of the game.

Things i've been thinking about:

Techmarine and fortifications
Cc dreads with palladins in ravens
3 dreadknights with interceptorsupport
Triple landraider purifiers and deathcults


Anybody tried these out yet?

[Zeroth]

6th edition made me think about infatery spam again. Surely it must have been mentioned or sugested before, but Crowe + 6 units of 10-man purifiers with 4 psycannons is an aweful army to beat for.. well anyone at 1750. 96 psycannon shots when not moving together with 72 storm bolter shots. If you get into combat be prepared for a strong overwatch and then a psychic power to wound you up before combat, after all that they are still ace in cc.

Thoughts? Any army that reliable can kill that?

[GodlessM]

While you are correct that this is a new edition and the game has changed I don't think you should just throw away everything you have learned from 5th.
You say there will be less tanks so you don't need to bring long range AT.

So how will you deal with 5 razorbacks, 3 dreadnoughts and 2 storm ravens when you switched your army to deal with infantry "because there wont be enough tanks".
Meanwhile those tanks safe from your anti infantry fire while they shred your infantry just as hard.

Yes tanks are easier to kill with AT fire but unless you still bring said AT fire they are just as survivable and there ability to kill isn't diminished.
People talk about changed metas but due to the nature of tanks and there immunity to small arms fire bringing less AT is very dangerous.

That's not hwo a meta works though. If everyone took that attitude then the meta would never evolve. Again you are saying how would I deal with that list, but any half decent player isn't going to bring that list to a tournament. Sure, they might be able to have a g agaist my list say, but the very knowledge that it is almost auto-lose against Necrons and Dark Eldar means good players won't take that risk, and so the meta evolves to the most risk free element. That element is then duplicated, and so SPAM is born. Right now flyers and TEQ are the two hardest things to take out, so that's what you will see in tournaments, not the 5th edition list you posted. Nobody is throwing out everything they learned in 5th edition, but not adapting from it is folly, and my experiences in 6th edition so far has shown me that in droves.

My current list is a GM, a Libby, 5 Paladins, 10 Strikes, 5 Strikes, 2 Ravens, and 2 Dreadknights. This has no long range AT, but doesn't care about it. Usually the Dreadknights are outflanking while the Libby and Paladins are in the Raven. With Psychic Communion things are nearly always on turn 2, and in close range. The army doesn't care so much about the fire power a list like the one you proposed above is throwing out, except the Dreads, which are an easy first target.

For examples, look at the examples steevn posted above, as they are more akin to what we will see in 6th than what you have posted, I'm pretty sure.

[Your Mum Rang]

Simple question: Which is better, 2 x 8 Psykers in Rhinos or 3 x 8 Psykers on foot?

[lantzkev]

I'd only bother with one or two on foot. Rhinos are half the cost of the squad!

[steevn]

Simple question: Which is better, 2 x 8 Psykers in Rhinos or 3 x 8 Psykers on foot?

Rhinos no longer provide the protection you'll need. I think they are still good enough to get you where you need to be on the board. Question should be : where do you want your unit to be?

[Gorsameth]

I'd only bother with one or two on foot. Rhinos are half the cost of the squad!

You say that but how is that foot squad going to get past the first turn when its just 8 guardsman standing around.
No the rhino isn't as survivable as it used to be (tho its not even a big change) but it still absorbs firepower before it dies. Firepower that isn't tearing through the squishy psykers themselves.

[unforgiven555]

No the rhino isn't as survivable as it used to be (tho its not even a big change) but it still absorbs firepower before it dies.

I'd say it's about the same. It's much more likely to survive one round of shooting. Most importantly, it's more likely to wreck rather than explode - meaning that the guardsmen inside are not as likely to be vaporized, rather, they'll get cover when it dies.

[lantzkev]

You say that but how is that foot squad going to get past the first turn when its just 8 guardsman standing around.
No the rhino isn't as survivable as it used to be (tho its not even a big change) but it still absorbs firepower before it dies. Firepower that isn't tearing through the squishy psykers themselves.

I guess I should ask what you're using them for... I've only used them to stay on my side of the board and hole things down against "big things" and to go along with a massive henchman squad and coteaz to guard a flank with his "I've been expecting you"

With deny the witch, and the plethora of anti-psyker stuff, trying to move them across the board and do their "big" attack has always seemed a bit silly. to assault with them is folly and not really their best use. You want them to take out units of troops or tanks, to do that you add in jokaero or servitors and shoot accordingly. The psykers act as wounds you won't have to delegate to your jokaero or servitors. Ideally you keep them in cover the entire time, with the addition of buyable terrain, it should be absurdly easy to do so. (hell give one a weapon implacement to fire since the other 7 just fire lasguns.)

Most armies do not have the ranged power to take out alot of them at a time, if they are focusing enough to do that, they aren't firing at your more expensive and more effective units. Everyone knows when they see a pysker unit hit the board that they will only succeed 3/4ths of the time, and then 1/6th of the time or better the effect will be negated by deny the witch, and if they have any other defenses? yeah... oh and then the to hit will hit 1/3rd and scatter 2d6-3 inches....

If they are targeting them first, they are planning on you being lucky or they have positioned their army to where your scatter is still scarey, or they simply have nothing better to shoot at.

Since everyone here likes to do math, how likely is a squad of 10 str 4 shots likely to take out a rhino vs how many psykers will die to the same volley given a 5+ cover? Then look at the math behind actual typical anti vehicles weapons, like a single autocannon, missile, lascannon, or even a assault cannon.

Buying a whole new unit of psykers imo is better than two in a rhino.

[Bartali]

....Since everyone here likes to do math, how likely is a squad of 10 str 4 shots likely to take out a rhino vs how many psykers will die to the same volley given a 5+ cover? Then look at the math behind actual typical anti vehicles weapons, like a single autocannon, missile, lascannon, or even a assault cannon.

Buying a whole new unit of psykers imo is better than two in a rhino.

No amount of S4 shots will take out a Rhino, unless you're shooting at it from behind. Hence the point of a Rhino.....

[Pooky]

Been reading the posts in this thread. Do people think the following army could work under 6th ed? (I don't have my codex handy but I think this will come to around 1750)

Draigo
10 Terminators, 8 Daemon Hammers, Warding Staff, Brotherhood Banner, 2 Psycannons
10 Strikers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Hammers
10 Strikers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Hammers
Stormraven, Multimelta, Lascannons
Stormraven, Multimelta, Lascannons

The plan was to have the Stormravens snipe opponent armor, Mostrous Creatures or TEQs. The strikers and Terminators would either DS onto the board or walk on from a table edge. I would not put any units into the Stormravens for fear the entire unit is shot down before it can do anything. The strikers will act as a fire support platform and the Terminators are the hammer. It worries me a little that Draigo is only AP3 and can't really dent TEQs

[Bartali]

Deep striking the Terminators and Strikes isn't an option due to the new reserve rules.

The problem with this list is that you have no mobility, and for the most part will end up walking to objectives and trying to hold them. TH/SS Deathwing do this kind of thing better.

[Loki73]

I was actually just thinking about this.

Vs some vehicles (demolisher, some Necron vehicles mostly) S10 is a 1 glance, 2+ pen. Against two other vehicles (monolith and land raiders), it's 4 glance, 5-6 pen. Against walkers, it's whatever their AV is (generally 12, so 3+ pen). But against the majority of vehicles in the game, a S10 CC attack is auto-pen.

If you put the tele-port pack on him cant you get a I10 free strike on a vehicle if you jump into assault as well?

[Your Mum Rang]

I guess I should ask what you're using them for... I've only used them to stay on my side of the board and hole things down against "big things" and to go along with a massive henchman squad and coteaz to guard a flank with his "I've been expecting you"

With deny the witch, and the plethora of anti-psyker stuff, trying to move them across the board and do their "big" attack has always seemed a bit silly. to assault with them is folly and not really their best use. You want them to take out units of troops or tanks, to do that you add in jokaero or servitors and shoot accordingly. The psykers act as wounds you won't have to delegate to your jokaero or servitors. Ideally you keep them in cover the entire time, with the addition of buyable terrain, it should be absurdly easy to do so. (hell give one a weapon implacement to fire since the other 7 just fire lasguns.)

Most armies do not have the ranged power to take out alot of them at a time, if they are focusing enough to do that, they aren't firing at your more expensive and more effective units. Everyone knows when they see a pysker unit hit the board that they will only succeed 3/4ths of the time, and then 1/6th of the time or better the effect will be negated by deny the witch, and if they have any other defenses? yeah... oh and then the to hit will hit 1/3rd and scatter 2d6-3 inches....

If they are targeting them first, they are planning on you being lucky or they have positioned their army to where your scatter is still scarey, or they simply have nothing better to shoot at.

Since everyone here likes to do math, how likely is a squad of 10 str 4 shots likely to take out a rhino vs how many psykers will die to the same volley given a 5+ cover? Then look at the math behind actual typical anti vehicles weapons, like a single autocannon, missile, lascannon, or even a assault cannon.

Buying a whole new unit of psykers imo is better than two in a rhino.

I tend to agree. My plan WAS to have them hold down a flank whilst the rest of my army (Mordrak, shunting Interceptors/Dreadknight and Drop Pods) lands in the face of the enemy turn 1.

[Gorsameth]

If you put the tele-port pack on him cant you get a I10 free strike on a vehicle if you jump into assault as well?

Being a MC the dreadknights already has Hammer of wrath. dont need a teleporter for it.