What The....? Seriously? What were you thinking?

[Tellos]

Just my thoughts.

No self respecting black templar player should ever
ally with aliens.

Dead to the xenos.

[sverigesson]

The problem with the overly familiar "Don't like it? Don't use it!" response that is given, is that while you may not like a choice and so can avoid using it, you can't control your opponent. So while Dark Angels player Jim refuses to use Eldar allies as his (older) codex says this wouldn't happen, he may still get upset when Black Templar player Jane brings along a large detachment of Tau ignoring this part of the background.

Sounds like Dark Angels player Jim needs to get his panties untwisted. Since when should Jim get any say in how Jane gets enjoyment from playing the game? It is not Jim's right or responsibility to be the fluff police here. So, the point stands: don't like it, don't use it. And if Jim is so anal as to get upset about how Jane like to play her army (and why is he so invested in Black Templar fluff when he's playing Dark Angels?!?!?), then he sounds like he's a D-bag, and I don't think many people would want to play him.

I only say this so candidly because we're talking about a hypothetical "Jim", and I sincerely hope that you are not, in fact, Jim. Please don't be Jim.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Some people enjoy the fluff aspect of the game, and it sorta diminishes the experience for them when it gets broken. It's all a matter of personal preference. If he acts like a dick about it, then that's bad sportsmanship, but being bothered by a Black Templar/Tau army seems fair. After all, it's a bit of a stretch on its beliveability in the background. It isn't about begrudging Jane, more a failure for it to liveup to expectations. It's the same reason back in the day when I played more, I never played my Space Marines against my friends who had Space Marines, and instead broke out my Tyranids or Guard. Not everybody has more than one army though.

Of course, considering the game is principally Space Marines fighting each other these days, I guess the fluff is somewhat irrelevant unless you're just pretending all the battles are theoretical or force on force training.

[sverigesson]

Exactly. Why would most of the Space Marine Chapter fight each other? Let let the fluff be a guide, but let it stay flexible. I'd rather have an allies chart that opens up possibilities for creativity and fun, rather than one that totally abides by the fluff as it is. Really, do we need more Imperial favoritism? Because that's what it would be: "All Imperial armies get to ally with each other, and everyone else is out of luck." Hyperbole: yes. Far from the truth: not terribly.

[Scammel]

Exactly. Why would any of the Space Marine Chapter Fight each other? Unless one is a traitor chapter.

Sacking of Prospero? Badab War? Plenty of occasions when loyal Marines have fought each other.

[sverigesson]

Sacking of Prospero?

You mean Space Wolves vs. Thousand Sons during the Horus Heresy? Hardly loyal marines, were they?

Badab War?

Weren't they a bunch of secessionists? Again, not so loyal.

Anyways, this just serves to illustrate the point anyway. If there is a good fluff reason, you can justify anything, even Codex Marine vs. Codes Marine, or Space Wolves vs. Imperial Guard, or Blood Angels vs. Dark Angels, or anything vs. anything. How is allying any different? Good fluff can explain any of these "against the fluff" allies the same way it can explain the aforementioned examples of Marines against Marines.

[Egaeus]

Anyways, this just serves to illustrate the point anyway. If there is a good fluff reason, you can justify anything, even Codex Marine vs. Codes Marine, or Space Wolves vs. Imperial Guard, or Blood Angels vs. Dark Angels, or anything vs. anything. How is allying any different? Good fluff can explain any of these "against the fluff" allies the same way it can explain the aforementioned examples of Marines against Marines.

I agree, but my issue is what constitutes "good" fluff and what is bending things to extremes simply to justify something? If "fluff justification" is the sole arbiter then in theory you should have no limits on alliances...as you can always create some desperate end-of-the-universe event if two armies don't work together for some common goal.

Just off the top of my head: Tyranid with Eldar allies...the Farseers have determined that the enemy leader (see, this allows it to be used for any opposing army except perhaps Tyranids themselves) is going to escape from the planet and go on to cause all kinds of havoc...so under cover of the Tyranid invasion they slip in, assassinate him, and slip out. Heck, maybe they're even willing to give their lives to save others if the predictions are dire enough.

Actually, the whole "Farseers see something bad coming and attempt to stop it" seems like it would pretty well allow them to ally with anyone...it may not be a close alliance, but it's there. One could almost use the same sort of justification for Grey Knights or any other psychic race that does divination.

Essentially you get to a point where you can really justify anything you want. As I said in my previous posts is that while this is completely doable having every game revolve around some extremely odd coincidence requiring two forces that would normally be tearing each other apart to get along takes away from the...I guess "strength" of the background is the best term I can think of at the moment. So the Imperium is this oppressive, xenophobic, aggressive empire...except when they're being buddy-buddy with the aliens they supposedly hate. Yes, I know it's a big dose of hyperbole as this isn't going to be every game...just that the rules allow it to become common enough that is is annoying.

[Scammel]

Hardly loyal marines, were they?

The Sons were totally loyal. They never even entertained the notion of rebellion. Magnus himself was loyal to the point where he refused to retaliate until the battle was effectively over and let most of his own legion be destroyed.

Weren't they a bunch of secessionists? Again, not so loyal.

I'm not as clued up on the Badab War, but I was under the impression that Huron was pretty much forced to secede after the Imperial reaction to his (pretty legit) policies. But really, the point's moot. becuase as you said, pretty much anything can be justified. Those are just two good examples of instances where it may not necessarily have been 'loyalists v. loyalists', but would justify the use of Codex:SM on both sides.

[eldargal]

How is seeing Black Templar with Tau any worse for a fluff player as seeing unique Special Characters in every other list, min-maxxed power builds and all kinds of other un-fluffy goings on? I can swallow the idea of Black Templar making a desperate last stand against my Eldar support by some Tau who are in the same situation as the BT more easily than seeing Draigo turn up to every single skirmish against said Eldar.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

How is seeing Black Templar with Tau any worse for a fluff player as seeing unique Special Characters in every other list, min-maxxed power builds and all kinds of other un-fluffy goings on? I can swallow the idea of Black Templar making a desperate last stand against my Eldar support by some Tau who are in the same situation as the BT more easily than seeing Draigo turn up to every single skirmish against said Eldar.

And I do agree with you on the issue of SC's, they are overused somewhat. However, you have to temper fluff play with some of SC's to MAKE game play correct sometimes. Vulkan is a perfect example of this. Without Vulkan, Salamanders are just green painted Ultramarines. It is Vulkan's rules that make them feel like Salamanders. I'll grant that Vulkan, and others like him, are the exception, not the rule. Wazzdakka fits in this category also. It's just doesn't feel an Evil Sunz army until you start to have Bikers as troops. Otherwise, they feel like any old Orks.

If you are a BT player, it implies clearly in the codex. "BT hate ALL witches, aliens, and mutants; and will not ally with them under ANY circumstances". You most certainly can't call yourself a fluff player if you're taking Tau as an ally. I'd even argue that you really can't call your army a true BT force because you went against the main tenement of the army itself. That is not following the fluff as written.

[sverigesson]

And what if I did consider myself a true Black Templar player (I'm not, but go along with me) and allied with Eldar? Is is really that inconceivable? And is it anyone else's business but mine how I like to build and fluff my army? I agree that maybe they screwed the pooch with Sisters being desperate allies, but whatever, I'm not going to get upset over it. And I definitely don't care if someone brings Black Templar and Eldar, Grey Knights and Necrons, or Space Wolves and Tau. Just pretend they're a more moderate successor chapter or something.

Oh, and I play Guard, and I love that I get to effectively ally with almost every army! Except Necrons, which I've been aching to collect! Damn...

[Azzy]

Desperate Allies with SoB. Ok I can see that, few in the Imperium truly likes the Sisters' uppity attitudes, including the Templars which are almost known for being the horse's arses in the Imperium.

Really? If anything, the BT and Sisters should get along better than the BT with some other SM chapters (especially SW or BA--damned mutants, or DA--they're probably heretics). Both have similar goals (burn witches, mutants and heretics) and have worked well with each other in the existing fluff (e.g.: Vinculus Crusade

[Surgency]

Really? If anything, the BT and Sisters should get along better than the BT with some other SM chapters (especially SW or BA--damned mutants, or DA--they're probably heretics). Both have similar goals (burn witches, mutants and heretics) and have worked well with each other in the existing fluff (e.g.: Vinculus Crusade

You don't really know the sisters fluff then, do you... Sure they're all about burning witches, heretics, and mutants, but Space Marines don't venerate the Emperor as a god, so the Sororitas regularly pushes to prosecute chapters that don't agree as heretical. I'm sure the Templar would appreciate that. Granted, the Sororitas is usually rebuffed in their attempts at persecution, but occasionally they're allowed to, something the Templars could also see as a threat. And what of the Templars refusal to submit to the "1000 brother" limit as written down in the Codex Astartes? The Inquisition, in the form of the Ordo Hereticus, has on several occasions posited that the Templars may be walking the line of Heresy. I'm sure Helbrecht is okay with that though, and has no problem fighting alongside the very force who accuses his marines of being heretics...

My issue is because a certain writer was involved in the creation of the rulebook as one of the main people involved, AND his involvement in the Allies Chart itself, AND his penchant for changing fluff, can we be SURE it will NOT have an impact of future fluff, beyond a shadow of a doubt? I say no, we can't. Hence why it is best to raise the alarm NOW that it COULD happen, rather than later after the BT book is out, and such changes ARE made and nothing can be said about, other than the standard "WTF' threads we get AFTER such changes are made. It's best to say something BEFORE it's done, to possibly prevent such abominations, as we all know GW doesn't listen worth spit afterwards. Why should they? They've already done it, it's a done deal at that point.

You do have to wonder if this chart was designed to set up such changes.

Who are you to say what GW does with its IP? And how do you know Ward wrote the allies part? I don't remember any bylines under the chart. Furthermore, if GW IS moving their stuff in this direction, what makes you think they care what you say? GW is going to expand the universe however it wants to, not however some agitated posters on some random internet forums think it should be expanded.

[Azzy]

You don't really know the sisters fluff then, do you...

Um, yes, I do.... thank you very much.

Sure they're all about burning witches, heretics, and mutants, but Space Marines don't venerate the Emperor as a god, so the Sororitas regularly pushes to prosecute chapters that don't agree as heretical.

Right, and space marines barely count as human, too (given all their alterations). And while they're unlikely to ask for help from marines, the have and do assist the ass-tarts from time to time (sometimes even willingly--like that Vinculus Crusade I mentioned).

I'm sure the Templar would appreciate that. Granted, the Sororitas is usually rebuffed in their attempts at persecution, but occasionally they're allowed to, something the Templars could also see as a threat. And what of the Templars refusal to submit to the "1000 brother" limit as written down in the Codex Astartes? The Inquisition, in the form of the Ordo Hereticus, has on several occasions posited that the Templars may be walking the line of Heresy. I'm sure Helbrecht is okay with that though, and has no problem fighting alongside the very force who accuses his marines of being heretics...

Even though they've allied (willingly, even) in existing fluff? I believe the BT have even incorporated the Sororitas's emblem in one of their standards.

All of which evades the point I was making that, based on existing fluff, BT would more willing ally with the Soroitas than with SM chapters that feature obvious mutations or who are using psykers, or DA, in particular, after the events of the Ophidium Gulf Crusade.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I don't agree. The Black Templars are near heretical themselves with their inflated numbers and fleet. This is a case where they have a lot of parallels in their themes, but they aren't compatible. Ultimately, other Space Marines at least share a similar agenda. The Sisters are notoriously sticky about the rules, and Space Marines notoriously sticky about their independence from Imperial control. The Sisters and Templars may both hate witches, but they have preety different overall agendas and objectives. The Sisters have too many ties to organizations that Space Marines don't trust (Ecclessiarchy and Inquisition) to make desirable allies.

[Azzy]

And yet... existing fluff.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I don't agree. The Black Templars are near heretical themselves with their inflated numbers and fleet. This is a case where they have a lot of parallels in their themes, but they aren't compatible. Ultimately, other Space Marines at least share a similar agenda. The Sisters are notoriously sticky about the rules, and Space Marines notoriously sticky about their independence from Imperial control. The Sisters and Templars may both hate witches, but they have preety different overall agendas and objectives. The Sisters have too many ties to organizations that Space Marines don't trust (Ecclessiarchy and Inquisition) to make desirable allies.

The point is not necessarily whether Inquisitorial or Ecclesiarchical forces are best buddies with Space Marines, they're not, but are they going to be distrusted on the battlefield as much or more than aliens!?

I can't imagine any chapter that would rather fight alongside the heretical and blasphemous alien than with sisters fiercely loyal to the Emperor, despite any ideological differences. Never mind that this table is going to show "typical" alliances. We aren't talking about a putative specific case.

I'm okay with sisters being only convenient allies. Desperate allies seems a bit much, but I could be okay with that if the rest of the chart made sense. The ideological differences between astartes and sororitas pale in comparison to those between dark and light Eldar. Nobody likes hanging out with the inquisition but surely them taking control of units is common enough to warrant "blood brothers" staus - and if it doesn't, why on earth would it be okay for Eldar and Tau, who really rarely have much to do with each other, to enjoy a more trusted alliance?

You can justify any given link in the ally matrix but it is in comparison that the flaws are apparent.