I dunno, I'm going to need an explicit rule that says he isn't a Scout for the purposes of this analogy, just like you've been asking for an explicit rule that says a Sybarite isn't a Kabalite Warrior.
I dunno, I'm going to need an explicit rule that says he isn't a Scout for the purposes of this analogy, just like you've been asking for an explicit rule that says a Sybarite isn't a Kabalite Warrior.
Wow, I guess an example that proves a different statline is a different model wouldn't apply to Warriors and Kabalites at all.Originally Posted by Krovin-Rezh
Despite the attitude, you are correct, Tom. There's no rule that says changing a model's statline makes it a different model.
KR
I apologize for coming out of nowhere and possibly adding fuel to the fires. Be nice, pretty please?
Anyways, I don't think that you can compare DA Scout situation with DE Kabalite Warrior/Sybarite situation.
Because with KWarriors you have the option to upgrade one to sybarite, you don't have to but you can. But with DA Scouts (and other SM codecies except Wolves) you don't have the option of upgrading, you will always have 4-9 scouts and sarge (or 4-9 tactical/assault marines and sarge).
And that is why the FAQ both answered question about giving sarge the same option for sniper rifle and changed the wording of mentioned upgrade to clear it out. You still can't give the sarge heavy bolter or missile launcher.
If you presented me with your army list that had Sybarite with SCannon I might let it pass the first time or just ask you to "give" that cannon to a KWarrior model. Or with Trueborns and Dracon either lose the blaster or the Dracon, if you want 4 blasters and a Dracon you'll have to take 5 Trueborns and upgrade 1 to Dracon.
If you don't like that, I would do the same if your list had Noise Marines with champion that had blastmaster or havoc aspiring champion with heavy/special weapon.
If the options that you have taken in your "final" army list aren't found in the codex, it's not legal and I will ask you to make your list legal or I'll pack my things and do something else with my time.
If you have to explain your list with some strange order of upgrades you are playing the rules and not the game you are supposed to be playing.
Just my opinion though
Thanks for the input khidi. Have you considered that the end result of a Sybarite with a splinter cannon is legal, since he is an upgraded Kabalite Warrior?
KR
If you go by the logic that you can first give warrior the cannon and then upgrade him/her to sybarite then yes. I Don't remeber reading anything in any of my codecies (3 vanilla SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, Daemon or Ork) or in the BRB (4th, 5th or 6th) about the sequence or order of the upgrades that you can give your units, heavy/special weapons first and then possible characters or other way around.
That is why unless you actually have a line of text that says that Sybarite can upgrade his/her rifle to a cannon, it can't be done.
Still, if I see a Sybarite with cannon, I'll ask you to show me where in the unit description it is an option to give Sybarite a cannon and when there isn't one, the Sybarite with cannon becomes illegal
You say that he is a warrior that was given a cannon before he was upgraded to a sybarite. I say he is a sybarite that has been given a cannon.
NO he properly did not consider this
Have you considered the fact that your interpretation of the rules might cause you to lose games?
As in ppl will not play against you any more?
Cause your trying to make a case where you assume that you understand the writers intent
Clearly he meant for you to find a back door to have a Sybarite whit a Splinter cannon.
Cause you know there are timing rules for upgrading and making it imported in which order you upgrade that Sybarite.
FOR hell know writing a model can take a Splinter cannon for +x points would have been so much clearer. But then the plebs would get it to and its only for the initiated.
To be blunt if you feel it's correct you should use it.
But you will find out that having a splinter rifle whit sniper is not such a big advantage against a non existing opponent.
If he hasn't, he has 15 pages of thread to go through where he can read the arguments about whether or not it's actually legal.
Also this post made die a little on the inside
And there's no rule that says it doesn't. It's a permissive rule-set - it tells you what's possible, not what's not. Clearly a model with a different name and a different set of characteristics is a different kind of model, or where does it end? Oh right, with Sybarites wielding heavy weapons in defiance of the written rules, the convention in unit entries in the same Codex and multiple other Codecies, and of the way that upgrades have worked for squad leaders since at least 2nd Edition.
I mean, that's what this comes down to in the end: we all know that there's pretty much no unit in the history of 40K with access to special and heavy weapons that has allowed its squad leader to be one of these specialists. That's just not how the army selection rules have ever worked. Why would a random Dark Eldar unit be the exception to this? And why would it be hidden as an easter egg like this? If Dark Eldar were known for having their squad leaders carry their heavy weapons - a trait that is essentially unique in the 41st Millennium, it seems - wouldn't it be in their background somewhere? Wouldn't there be some mention of this amazing talent somewhere? No Space Marine Sergeant, no Sister Superior, no Exarch, no Ork Nob has ever even considered picking up a big gun before, in 10,000+ years of warfare across an entire galaxy, and then some nobody Dark Eldar Sybarite figures out the trick? And he doesn't even tell the other guys in his army that they can do it too?
It seems unlikely. You can argue RAW to the end of time (or you can if you're willing to ignore what the actual RAW are), but there's no question about RAI.
Ahem - Dark Reaper Exarch... that is all(sorry, couldnt resist! :; )
Other than the fact that he has a completely different stat line, has different options available but also different restrictions, and may have completely different wargear assigned?
So, the next time you run a Sybarite with a plasma cannon I'll insist that you use the profiles for Kabellite Warriors for him since he's "only" a Kabellite Warrior.
Haha. Yes, fair enough - although that would be an example of there being some kind of fluff explanation for something so unusual. Theirs is the Eldar Aspect devoted exclusively to perfecting the use of heavy weapons, and that's the trait that makes them unique. Kabalite Warriors are the standard Troops choice in a Dark Eldar army, so how come these ordinary guys have the amazing, characteristic ability of a unit of specialists (of the same species, no less...) who devote their whole lives to shooting big guns? What makes an ordinary, non-specialised Sybarite as clever as a Exarch?Ahem - Dark Reaper Exarch... that is all
Oh, I'm not seriously arguing, I'm just being difficult!
And on that note....
Fire Dragon Exarch! - not a squad with big-ass guns, but he can take a firepike (which judging from the look of the model is quite large...)
...
Ok, thats enough of that - I'm bored now
Look at the rules for "onslaught" on page 31. That shows the author considers a klaivex and incubus to be two distinct models, so it follows that a sybarite and warrior are also two distinct models.
My new Dwarf PLOG - The Dwarfs march to war!
My Son's of Orar PLOG -Imperials vs Orks - A tale of four painters PLOG http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...-four-painters
I think Shadowfane is just trying to stop the horrific disfiguring of this poor deceased horse.
I know, sorry, I didn't mean it to come across as if I was arguing with you - I was just re-appropriating your (good natured) counter-point as a point in my favour. The fact that very specialised units have heavy weapon squad leaders just makes it even less likely that a regular Troops choice would have the same kind of option!Oh, I'm not seriously arguing, I'm just being difficult!
And on that note....
Fire Dragon Exarch! - not a squad with big-ass guns, but he can take a firepike (which judging from the look of the model is quite large...)
...
Ok, thats enough of that - I'm bored now
You contradicted yourself here. If it's a permissive ruleset, I don't need a rule that says I can't do something, since the rules currently allow it.
KR
Except the whole point of this 15 page Passchendaele is that the rules DON'T say that you can take a Sybarite with a Splinter Cannon. They say you can take a Warrior. Except by your reasoning (and not by any rule in print) a Sybarite can take a SC because he's just a Warrior wearing a different coloured t-shirt and false moustache.
The argument seems to have moved into even more bizarre ground. I'm sorry if I offended you by calling you a troll, but I really cannot see how your argument makes sense.
A Warrior is a Warrior. A Sybarite is a Sybarite. The permissive rules state what upgrades can be taken. A Sybarite can take several weapons, none of which are splinter cannons. Why is this discussion still going on?
Because you've incorrectly assumed that an upgrade is the same as a replacement, Aurelius.
KR
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