Squad Leaders, special/heavy weapons, and precision shot.

[Chapters Unwritten]

1.) What is said in one FAQ means nothing to another. Precedents are at best turning guesses into educated guesses. Nothing more. It's a permissive ruleset, and they told us via FAQ that we can do that for that unit. In other cases such as this, we have no ruling. Perhaps more importantly, the Ork codex is just shy of two editions old. Going back two editions to get your precedent is flimsy at best.

2.) The wording being consistent may have had nothing to do with the author of the codex.

3.) A Sybarite is clearly supposed to have a Splinter Rifle to begin with, inferring from the options and from the list. Every model in that squad, by default, has a Splinter Rifle. So by creating a Sybarite that doesn't have one you are technically walking a fine line to begin with, as a Sybarite according to that entry starts with it. A long argument, I know, but no more shaky than any you've used.

4.) Your argument about the order of the lists is pointless, there are two separate lists with separate option sets.

5.) While I'm not necessarily certain it is or isn't legal, your arguments are very poor. If I used "it's the order I read it in" as an argument, I can take all kinds of bizarre options (especially the Terminator / Power Armor combo entries. That means that for 15 points pretty much any Terminator leader can pre-emptively make sure he is able to get an extra attack. Thanks for the game-wide buff!) The fact is there are innumerable ways you could use the logic of your thought process to break other options. It is very clearly incorrect in the context of the rest of the game. It sets a screwed up precedent that messes things up left right and center elsewhere.

6.) By your interpretation (that Warriors have the default wargear and Sybarites don't), a Sybarite starts unarmed. Amusing.

7.) I don't really even think this is that illegal, but if it's something so uncertain in the first place, why would you try it unless you are certain? This is one of those 40k things that irks me. A dude who plonks down whatever model and decides his weapon-toting Warrior is the Sybarite today. If you actually had to represent Sybarite models uniquely, and if you were going to potentially make an illegal figure in doing so, I'm sure people would err on the side of caution/sportsmanship more often.

8.) Zaljin is much more concise then I, but basically, yeah; that it breaks later Sybarite options makes it clear there is a problem. Does the Ork one do that?

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

@Zaljin
Whatever do you mean it's RAI, you have no justification for that. Would you say the same for a nob with Big Shoota?

RAW:
-Buy cannon
-upgrade to Sybarite
-she does not have a splinter rifle to exchange so she just keeps the splinter cannon

*exactly like the Ork codex; No surprised when it's from the *SAME AUTHOR*

You're right, there is no argument here, and you're wrong.


You can add all sorts of things to my argument, but it's plainly no true the vast majority of what you claim about it. I argue not the order of lists, but the order of upgrades, as per the FAQ. I argue that the Sybarite exchanges gear as is the typical case for such things. I'd have to go read the codex to be sure on the wording; but it usually says "you may upgrade to a sybarite (and exchanges stuff for stuff.)" and "She may exchange blah for blah"

If she has no "blah" to exchange she can't very well exchange it, and just becomes a sybarite with an odd weapon; just like the FAQ. To argue against it is to have an *even worse argument than me* because you have NO evidence to support you rather than the
-precedent
-author (being the cause of the precedent
-and simply reading the rules.

[DoctorTom]

@Zaljin
Whatever do you mean it's RAI, you have no justification for that. Would you say the same for a nob with Big Shoota?

The FAQ doesn't say anything about Nobs taking Big Shootas, though.

[Drasanil]

RAW:
-Buy cannon
-upgrade to Sybarite
-she does not have a splinter rifle to exchange so she just keeps the splinter cannon

Alright, let's ignore the Sybarite =/= KW thing for a sec.

RAW:

-Buy Cannon.
-Upgrade to Sybarite
-She no longer has a cannon, because her entry explicitly affirms she has a Rifle.
-She may then trade that rifle for a pistol and CCW.
-Etc etc..

Congrats, you just paid for an upgrade that got canceled out by a subsequent one.

[Zaljin]

@Zaljin
Whatever do you mean it's RAI, you have no justification for that. Would you say the same for a nob with Big shootas

Its RAI also because no other codex is set up like this. That is better precedent.

Your RAW example is incorrect. Fact if the Sybarite could take a splinter cannon it would be listed in the options for Sybarite.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Fact if the Sybarite could take a splinter cannon it would be listed in the options for Sybarite.

Well, it would be listed as "Any model". Consider the Trueborn entry directly opposite. You have options for the "Dracon". You have options for the "Kabalite Trueborn". And you have options for "Any model". There is a clear distinction drawn between options available to the characters, to the non-characters, and to both. Given such specification, I find the notion that the options for non-characters are also meant to apply to characters to be patently ludicrous.

[Grampyseer]

I've got it!!!

5 scorpions. Upgrade 1 to exarch. Buy power claw.

Decide I want a DIFFERENT model to be an exarch.

Change the upgraded model, the first model still has a power claw.

I now repeat this process, and thanks to made up rules like " temporal army listing" I now have a unit of scorpions with power fists.

It doesn't say anywhere that I can't change my mind which model gets an upgrade, or even that said upgrade should disappear when I do change mind......I've paid the points!!

In all honesty, if you need to be told why your syrabite can't be the only Squad leader in the game to carry the unit special weapon.....you may count yourself as the reason why I don't play games in stores.

[Coredump]

While I am not sure GW 'intent', I also believe trying to can lead to madness....

But I am still waiting for anyone... anyone... to provide a rule that is being actually broken with this upgrade path.
Or... show how it is doing something that does not have a rule allowing it.


There is a specific rule saying a Warrior can swap for a Splinter Cannon.
There is a specific rule saying a warrior can be upgraded to a Sybarite.

So looking at just those two rules, lets take two actions...
Warrior A swaps for a Splinter Cannon
Warrior A is upgraded to a Sybarite.

At this stage, everything done has *followed a specific rule in the book*, so *at this stage* it is legal. But....
Perhaps there are other rules that disallow this...??

Is there a rule saying you can't use the same warrior for both rules?
Is there a rule saying a Sybarite is not allowed to have a Splinter Cannon?
Is there a rule saying a Warrior must have a Splinter rifle in order to upgrade to a Sybarite?
Is there a rule saying that when you upgrade, the Sybarite weapon must start as a Splinter rifle?
Is there *any* rule that would disallow this??

And please don't reply with the trite "Doesn't say I can't is not permissive"... I have clearly shown how you can doe this by following specific rules. The rules say it can be done.... unless another rule says it can't be....

[Dangersaurus]

There is a specific rule saying a Warrior can swap for a Splinter Cannon.
There is a specific rule saying a warrior can be upgraded to a Sybarite.

So looking at just those two rules, lets take two actions...
Warrior A swaps for a Splinter Cannon
Warrior A is upgraded to a Sybarite.

At this stage, everything done has *followed a specific rule in the book*, so *at this stage* it is legal.

As others have said: even if this wasn't an end run around the rules you would lose the splinter cannon when you upgrade to a Sybarite, since the Sybarite's default wargear is clearly defined.

[Coredump]

As I said, you are making an assumption that this is an 'end run' around the rules. I have found that GW actually does a pretty darn good job when writing these passages about what part of the unit can take what and when.

So lets skip the assumptions, and stick with the rules..

Could you please provide the exact rule that is being broken? A direct quote would be helpful.
I see nothing that says that when you upgrade to a Sybarite is will always have a Splinter Rifle. So if you can provide the rule that "clearly defines" this, I would appreciate it.

[Dangersaurus]

I don't really know what else to say. Shine on man.

[Malagor]

Think there will be quite alot of people that will get kicked out of their gaming group because of this.
For those that keep asking for the page that states where you can't upgrade a upgraded kabalite to syrabite, provide us the quote and page where it states that you can do so please. In particular, state the page where it says that the order of which you upgrade matters.
You wont find it. Nowhere does it say that a sybarite will keep the wargear that they had when they upgraded.
And as Grampy pointed out with the exarch, this sort of thinking is very open to abuse. Just as a a howling banshee exarch are the only ones that can have mirrorswords, only a kabalite warrior can have the splinter cannon unless it says that any model can have it.

In all honesty, if you need to be told why your syrabite can't be the only Squad leader in the game to carry the unit special weapon.....you may count yourself as the reason why I don't play games in stores.

I play in stores and this sort of thing wouldn't be acceptable there either.

[Mushkilla]

Playing devils advocate here, as much as I don't think it right, the arguments against it so far have not held water.

since the Sybarite's default wargear is clearly defined.

Read the entry, the sybarite's starting war gear is not clearly define. It's just inferred that he has whatever equipment the warrior had when he was upgraded. Where does it say what the sybarites starting wargear is?

If it's way off, then the rules would have explicitly stated the sybarites could take a splinter cannon. Since they don't, they obviously didn't want the sybarites to have one.

This is problematic, if it was stated in the sybarites entry that he could take a splinter cannon then you would be able to take two in a squad (one on the sybarite and one for every 10 warriors).

[Axel]

Fact is that the Orcs have a similar situation that has a FAQ. It allows the Nob to exchange his original weapons against an upgrade BEFORE the unit swaps its equipment. Nowhere is he allowed to keep a big shoota or bazooka, which would be the analogue to this case. Given the time Orks are played, you can be assured that Nobs would have shown up using big shootas if this had been allowed somewhere. More important, your way of reading things is explicitely forbidden there in the case of a Painboy (he may not get equipment that Nobs got and then be upgraded) and I can remember that the same idea was used for the tankbustas - handing the nob a hammer for increased ini - and rejected (though its not in the FAQ). There was a similar case for Blood Angel Cybots to the same end, but I am too lazy to reconstruct the details rigth now.

The fact that a similar (actually far less fishy) situation was FAQed to allow the Ork nob a swap ahead of his unit, and that there is no clarification on this in the Dark Eldar FAQ is telling, too.

As another nail - if a special weapon is available to ALL members of a unit, it usually is right there in the rules. If they mention only one type of models, they usually mean it.


In short, and just imho:
- You field a model with a special weapon.
- This model type is not allowed an upgrade to this special weapon.
- No special rule or FAQ to resolve this

Sufficient for me to make it fishy. So:
- Do not use it in friendly games.
- Ask the tournament organizer before if you venture there.

[Krovin-Rezh]

If it's way off, then the rules would have explicitly stated the sybarites could take a splinter cannon. Since they don't, they obviously didn't want the sybarites to have one.

Silly goose. A Kabalite doesn't have to gain Sybarite status to get his hands on a splinter cannon, so there is no need for that at all.

If you are arguing that you can give a Sybarite a splinter cannon, I would not want to play you. As you are showing what kind of gamer you are.

1. RAW: Upgrade Kabalite Warriors to Sybarite. One Kablite warrior can exchange splinter rifle for splinter cannon. Only Kabalite Warriors can have splinter cannon. Sybarite != Kabalite Warrior. Different profiles, different names.
2. RAI: Clearly there is no intention for the Sybarite to have a splinter cannon otherwise his other options don't work. Exchange splinter rifle for splinter pistol and close combat weapon for free.

Oh I already exchanged it for splinter cannon so I am less a splinter rifle so I get splinter pistol and close combat weapon as well? /sarcasm

There is no arguement here.

Whoa, okay. So now we want to jump into judgements of not only the game's characters, but each other's? You don't know me, son!

1. Kabalite Warrior != Sybarite, because Sybarite == Kabalite Warrior + Sybarite upgrades. Doesn't prevent Sybarite from taking Kabalite gear. In fact, he already takes Kablite gear by default (Kabalite armor, splinter rifle or whatever it was replaced with).

2. RAI arguments boil down to "This is how it works in my head, so that's how everyone should do it!!!" Good point, bro. Let me just change my mind right now. /sarcasm

[Krovin-Rezh]

I've got it!!!

5 scorpions. Upgrade 1 to exarch. Buy power claw.

Decide I want a DIFFERENT model to be an exarch.

Change the upgraded model, the first model still has a power claw.

I now repeat this process, and thanks to made up rules like " temporal army listing" I now have a unit of scorpions with power fists.

It doesn't say anywhere that I can't change my mind which model gets an upgrade, or even that said upgrade should disappear when I do change mind......I've paid the points!!

In all honesty, if you need to be told why your syrabite can't be the only Squad leader in the game to carry the unit special weapon.....you may count yourself as the reason why I don't play games in stores.

Aside from the temper tantrum over one of the most mundane advantages ever gained from a codex wording, you would have a powerful agrument there....... except that you'd be breaking the rule that says you can upgrade ONE model to an Exarch.

[Morollan]

Lots to get through, so here goes!

@DoctorTom

If it's way off, then the rules would have explicitly stated the sybarites could take a splinter cannon. Since they don't, they obviously didn't want the sybarites to have one.

Except, according to the rules, they do. By upgrading a Kabalite Warrior

The FAQ doesn't say anything about Nobs taking Big Shootas, though.

Doesn’t need to, as that upgrade option actually applies to “Any Ork”. So yes, a Nob can take a Big Shoota.

@Zaljin

1. RAW: Upgrade Kabalite Warriors to Sybarite. One Kablite warrior can exchange splinter rifle for splinter cannon. Only Kabalite Warriors can have splinter cannon. Sybarite != Kabalite Warrior. Different profiles, different names.
2. RAI: Clearly there is no intention for the Sybarite to have a splinter cannon otherwise his other options don't work. Exchange splinter rifle for splinter pistol and close combat weapon for free.

Oh I already exchanged it for splinter cannon so I am less a splinter rifle so I get splinter pistol and close combat weapon as well? /sarcasm

There is no arguement here.

You’re right, there is no argument here. I already went through these exact points in my initial post. The Sybarite can take Ghostplate Armour and/or PGL but none of the other options as it no longer has the item(s) of wargear that are required to be exchanged.

@Chapters Unwritten

What is said in one FAQ means nothing to another. Precedents are at best turning guesses into educated guesses. Nothing more. It's a permissive ruleset, and they told us via FAQ that we can do that for that unit. In other cases such as this, we have no ruling. Perhaps more importantly, the Ork codex is just shy of two editions old. Going back two editions to get your precedent is flimsy at best.

That entry in the Ork FAQ is still there. In 6th edition.

A Sybarite is clearly supposed to have a Splinter Rifle to begin with, inferring from the options and from the list. Every model in that squad, by default, has a Splinter Rifle. So by creating a Sybarite that doesn't have one you are technically walking a fine line to begin with, as a Sybarite according to that entry starts with it. A long argument, I know, but no more shaky than any you've used

Actually it’s much more shaky. The Sybarite starts with whatever equipment the Kabalite Warrior you are upgrading has. Unless you’ve found something in the rules that states otherwise?

Your argument about the order of the lists is pointless, there are two separate lists with separate option sets.

There seems to be a big issue over the order of the list and I’m not really sure why. The only point I’ve made was that it is hardly jumping through hoops to simply read a list from top to bottom as we would in normal everyday use and pick options as we go, in the order they are given. But I’m not saying that we have to do it that way, only that we have to pick options that are legal.

If I used "it's the order I read it in" as an argument, I can take all kinds of bizarre options (especially the Terminator / Power Armor combo entries. That means that for 15 points pretty much any Terminator leader can pre-emptively make sure he is able to get an extra attack. Thanks for the game-wide buff!)

Could you give a specific example so that I can comment on it?

By your interpretation (that Warriors have the default wargear and Sybarites don't), a Sybarite starts unarmed. Amusing.

As I mentioned in my reply to your earlier point the Sybarite has the same wargear as the kabalite warrior that is being upgraded. Not sure how that is amusing, other than the somewhat bizarre interpretation you’ve put on it.

I don't really even think this is that illegal, but if it's something so uncertain in the first place, why would you try it unless you are certain?

The thing is; I am certain. And I’m still waiting for someone to come up with anything to prove otherwise.

Zaljin is much more concise then I, but basically, yeah; that it breaks later Sybarite options makes it clear there is a problem. Does the Ork one do that?

Already responded to that. Zaljin may be concise but he’s also wrong.

@Drasanil

Alright, let's ignore the Sybarite =/= KW thing for a sec.

RAW:

-Buy Cannon.
-Upgrade to Sybarite
-She no longer has a cannon, because her entry explicitly affirms she has a Rifle.
-She may then trade that rifle for a pistol and CCW.
-Etc etc..

Congrats, you just paid for an upgrade that got canceled out by a subsequent one.

Could you quote where the Dark Eldar Codex says what the Sybarite starting equipment is?

@Grampyseer

I've got it!!!

5 scorpions. Upgrade 1 to exarch. Buy power claw.

Decide I want a DIFFERENT model to be an exarch.

Change the upgraded model, the first model still has a power claw.

I now repeat this process, and thanks to made up rules like " temporal army listing" I now have a unit of scorpions with power fists.

It doesn't say anywhere that I can't change my mind which model gets an upgrade, or even that said upgrade should disappear when I do change mind......I've paid the points!!

The codex says “One model in the squad may be upgraded to an Exarch” Regardless of whether you subsequently change your mind, you’ve still upgraded your one allowed model so I’m afraid no others can be upgraded. Plus, as you’ve pointed out yourself, there are no rules to allow the removal of upgrades.

NB – This is the only argument so far that has actually made me stop and think about it so Grampyseer might actually be onto something. I’m not convinced by this particular issue but there may be others.

@Coredump

But I am still waiting for anyone... anyone... to provide a rule that is being actually broken with this upgrade path.
Or... show how it is doing something that does not have a rule allowing it.

Me too…

@Dangersaurus

As others have said: even if this wasn't an end run around the rules you would lose the splinter cannon when you upgrade to a Sybarite, since the Sybarite's default wargear is clearly defined.

Others have said but others were wrong.

@Malagor

For those that keep asking for the page that states where you can't upgrade a upgraded kabalite to syrabite, provide us the quote and page where it states that you can do so please.

Codex Dark Eldar, page 89. Your turn!

In particular, state the page where it says that the order of which you upgrade matters.

It doesn’t. It only matters that you are upgrading legally, which I am. I could not, for example, give a Blast Pistol to a Kabalite Warrior.

[Mushkilla]

Given the time Orks are played, you can be assured that Nobs would have shown up using big shootas if this had been allowed somewhere.

No it wouldn't show up as it would mean running a Nob without a powerclaw, and no Ork worth his salt would do that!

[Fle]

It doesn't matter what order you do the upgrading in your list still has to be valid once you have finished writing it.

Rule 1 - a kabalite warrior (not sybarite) can be given a splitter cannon.

Rule 2 - A Kabalite warrior can be upgraded to a sybarite. From this point onwards he is no longer a kabalite warrior.

Rule 3 - There is no rule written in the codex that says you can give a splinter cannon to a sybarite

If, when you have finished writing your list, you have a sybarite with a splinter cannon then the list is not valid. You have broken rule 1 and rule number 3. As per the rules only a kabalite warrior can have a splinter cannon yet you have a sybarite with one.

[Askari]

It doesn't matter what order you do the upgrading in your list still has to be valid once you have finished writing it.

This is what I agree with also. The list needs to be legal when game begins, meaning any and all 'ordering' shenanigans are null. There's no option to give a Sybarite a Splinter Cannon, therefore, when the list matters (i.e. when starting the game) the list is illegal.

This is problematic, if it was stated in the sybarites entry that he could take a splinter cannon then you would be able to take two in a squad (one on the sybarite and one for every 10 warriors).

Not if they wrote it properly - see Codex: Grey Knights. In a Purifer squad is says "for every 5 models in the unit ... two Purifiers may upgrade"