Uhm, what does Str have to do with anything? This isn't fantasy and Instant death doesn't remove armor saves, only FnP saves so the example works fine.Originally Posted by Akwikone
Also, against all other type of units where all have the same save the order doesn't matter squat since it's just at question of who dies by what once the saves have been thrown.
"Morituri Nolumus Mori - We that are about to die don't want to"
- Rincewind
My IG paintlog: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198889
My Army of Fallen paintlog: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...58#post4397158
Oh, well I feel like an idiot now, at least it's clerified for me. I wonder where I was mis-informed because I don't play fantasy.
"...And the pain was enough to make a shy, bald, Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder."
It's just that it's called "instant death." I have friends that if it's been a month or two they'll start thinking you lose your save from it. It should be called "Lose-All-Your-Wounds-If-You-Fail-A-Save", but that's less grimdark and catchy.
I've been reading a lot of what people have been saying about tau, now by no means have I ever played Tau but I'm making a primary force of them and secondary of eldar, I have played eldar for ages and will continue to so heres how I see Tau.
Vehicles - hit points system, the high AV13 of most of the vehicles is the only protection now, a single side exposed and you will likely lose the vehicle the Tau have not had any improvements from this perspective, Hammerheads, I dont think i saw anyone use these as they were expensive single shot rounds and the area weapon just couldn't deal with the power armor that was out there, and the end of the meta of 5th, this was more true as GK and Necrons took over the primary builds, Sky ray seeker missiles still use BS5 for hunting flyers, however you need a marker-light, add this together, a 6's to his then 2's which against flyers is not the best you could do for armour hunting. Statistically Broadsides 3 man squad with team leader and Target lock, are the best, 6 shots 1in6 hit chance on flyers and +2 on armor penetration table meaning you only need a 3 or more to blow a flyer out of the sky. broadsides 2+ armour and shield drones copying the armour means with the nerf to power weapons these guys hand last in combat a lot longer, they are still edge of the board units, field them somewhere an ordnance or barrage cant snipe them if they do scatter.
Fire warriors, 4+ armour, 30" range rapid fire, we all know the stats, but S5 is light armour punching, dark eldar fear this and the new HP rules means reliably a fire warrior squad can start glancing flyers to death, not brilliant and a lot of the previous points have been made clear, combat is deadly for tau and really your looking at 2 wounds on most opponents without marker-lights from a 10 man squad at full range.
Cover saves have all been nerfed, TRUE, but also false, most opponents are capitalizing on Stealth and Shroud combined speaking as an eldar player, Harlequins, pathfinders, Dark eldar and the barron granting stealth, its all additions to the current cover, put pathfinders in cover and they get 2+ cover nothing changed there, put harlequins in cover, 2+ cover (thats new and something most lists cant stop) Tau can stop this with marker lights and are the only ones capable of stopping cover from area terrain. They dont need any upgrades as there not there to cause wounds but the light the enemy up.
So we move to the commander, I have taken Iridium armour, double flamers and black sun filter. put him with any squad tanking out front and he is T4 2+ armour with twin flamers to defend against charges,
Black sun filters - Amazing, now tau can fire over 36" range and the enemy doesnt get this stealth and shrouding, (woop?) yes woop because thats +3 to any cover save and makes even tank hunting at range very hard, suddenly that 25% cover 5+ that the tank had was 2+ cover, now we can hunt at normal range and still be a serious long range threat.
Rail guns as I said before, S10 AP1 same same, but now +2 to the damage table, now heres the beautiful part look closely at the building/fortification damage table...look, now keep looking, Damage goes up to ((( 7 ))), but only if you have AP2 or AP1... AP1 we can detonate a fortifcation that doesnt get a cover save at full 72" range, this is Aegis defence lines, Bastions, and most lovely the expensive Fortress of redemption, EXPLODING, this is whats attracted me to Tau, Rail guns rule the anti tank, they also can instant kill Nobz, Paladins.
So yes we can build 1500 - 1850 or + on these unit only, so heres my eldar list currently:
Eldrad - Yes i know I actually do have a T-shirt that has on its back, Codex Eldrad, True
3 man squad of eldar jetbikes last turn 48" turbo boost... need i say more for objectives
10 Wraithguard with a wraithseer warlock and enhance (+1WS +1I)
10 Harlquins (shadow seer and 10 Kisses, so +3 to any cover and 40 Rending attacks)
Now why ally Tau, because I just put the current Meta deathstar for eldar, into a Tau list, Now my tau Wont get charged, my Wraithguard have an 18" radius threat range, harlequins are a counter charge unit. Now my tactics put the tau commander into the Wraithguard so I have a 2+ armour rerollable save backed up by a majority T6 with 3++ from eldrad and 3+ from wraithguard, All of which are WS5 I5 S6 for any charge, even the commander is now WS4 I4 S5 and has wall of fire combined with Wraithcannons for overwatch.
I want night fight to hamper the enemies shooting ability, My eldar dont shoot range, My tau Ignore night fight, Remember if its not night fight Turn 1 (4+) then its night fight Turn 5(4+) which is a massive nurf to all shooting, aimed at stopping Alpha strikes, so Tau last longer and get a chance to bring real guns to bear and thin the herd. all those Imperial guard list using manicores we can take out easily.
Missions setups, 3 types, quarders, pitched and long table... Long table 1 in 3 chance our range rules and we can do serious fire while the enemy advances, people are still using land raiders, which Broadsides pop, flyers are popular, which broadsides more than pop, they shred like paper through a shredder.
If you blow up that flyer of theirs, wreck or destroyed, it has to fall out of the sky, 2D6 scatter, then a large blast S6 hit on all under it. anyone insides suffers S10 no armour or cover saves... now its looking like we can take out those Vendetta transports and not only kill the scoring units but also damage another unit around it, enemy hiding in a fortification we can 'detonation'. nothing armour lasts against broadsides, less an ever before, Focus fire means we truely rule the anti armour now. Deathstars, plus Pathfinders, not even nob bikers last still... do remember this wound allocation plus characters tanking is not what its cracked up to be, best way around those is to put your piranha in front of the character to focus fire on the squad around it. A)you just gave the character a cover save. alternatively Tau manoverability allows you to move squads to the sides so that a character isnt the first one in line and therefore you can ignore the character.
All I'm saying is that Tau may not be the solo comp they use to be but with other allies, they get to ally with other lists that cover there weaknesses. The meta currently is solo power houses like paladin lists, or Nob bikers, against that Tau has difficulties, against my wraith and Harelquin list, I find few Tau lists capable of handling me solo, combined with others though and you plug up that combat gap.
Take the good points, drop the bad and allies.
Last edited by Furiosa; 23-08-2012 at 10:47.
A Fair assessment it seems, I particularly agree on Cover, though Kroot got the short end of the stick, Our Stealth Suits and Sniper Drones faired quite well. Though one part was off, Infantry and Crisis suits can't take target locks anymore.
Anyway, on to new tactic I plan to test out in a few weeks time, Inter Unit JSJ. A tactic using Gun Drones for Ablative Wounds and as an Assault Deterrent making Shorter Ranged Weapons easier to bring to bare(Fusion Blasters, Flamers, Rapid Fire Plasma Rifles). By Having a full HQ unit of Crisis suits each armed with 2 Gun Drones and preferred shorter ranged weapons you can have the Suits Jump in front of the Gun Drones to Rapid Fire/Melta/Template the enemy then Jump Back, having the Gun Drones taking the Fire the fallowing Turn while also having TL Pinning shots and possible TL Flamers for overwatch. Another Benefit is that the Drones count as unit type of there owner, giving them the ability to Precision Fire and Accept Challenges(Unless Amendments specifically Negate this).
Obvious Downsides I've spotted are Points Cost, Precision Fire Instant Death, Negative to Leadership as the Drones die, being a High Priority target, Large Blast Templates, weaker units charging to get overwatched followed up by a more dedicated assault unit and Outflank/Deep Strike from behind.
Let me know if this idea is horribly bad as I had it while lacking sleep. Perhaps 3 Shield Drones would do the Job better, or a Farsight Drone and suit Swarm with a Hit and Run Shas'El to force Flamer Overwatch?(Can you tell I have a bad addiction to Point sinks?)
"...And the pain was enough to make a shy, bald, Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder."
@furiosa
Nightfighting only gives shrouded OR stealth, not both, so people can only claim a +2 to their cover save. (This is different from stealth suits, which do grant both shrouded and stealth.)
Fair Point ultraloth and true, however the slight rules error on my part, its still shows that cover saves are still very high.
On an extra, Vectored Retro Thrusters, grants the commander hit and run, now imagine all those units who need hit and run, my wraithguard are strong units but can get bogged down in an assault, now as long as my Tau commander lives my wraithguard have hit and run, so that the counter charge unit can assault cleanly in, after having a full salvo of Wraithcannons again, plus Eldrad will be out of combat so will be granted his 3rd power to cast so thats fortune harlequins, fortune wraithguard, doom Target which means now that deathstar list you lured into combat, is a goner, broadsides, pathfinders, wraithcannons for shooting with doom, Harlequins for combat with doom. most units cannot survive that quantity of fire power.
Tau and Eldar are not the only or most powerful combo but as my knowledge is eldar and I'm using tau to suppliment them, I wouldnt dare suggest to know or advise how to use tau with other list, i will leave that for others who have special know how on the particular race and how Tau can enhance them.
I suppose unlike most of the other Tactics this one hasnt gone unit to unit and weighed up pros and cons, then discussed tactis its been left open and so here is just a collection of everyones thoughts, its up to everyone to build something out of this that not only defies the meta and makes Tau superior but also feels right for yourselves, got a second game due Tuesday with my tau eldar combo, my list is as follows and I would like people to comment improve or otherwise. I should be playing Grey knight paladins plus necron flyers allies and the guy I'm playing is good so will feed back how it all went.
Eldrad
Wraithguard x 10
Warlock
spirit seer
Enhance
Harlequins x10
ShadowSeer
Kiss x10
Eldar Jet bikes
Tau commander
Commander Shas'o
Iridium Armour
Vectored retro thrusters
Twin linked flamer
Fire warriors x 6
Fire warriors x 6
pathfinders x 6
Devil Fish
Broadsides x 3
Shas'vre
hard wired black sun filter
hard wired drone controller
Advanced Stabalizers
Sheild drones x 2
Advanced Stabalizers x2
Broadsides x 3
Shas'vre
hard wired black sun filter
hard wired drone controller
Advanced Stabalizers
Sheild drones x 2
Advanced Stabalizers x2
1840
I've got 10pts and dont know where to put it, suggestions? As I said I'll let you all know how it played out. This is suppose to be my comp list so sorry if this last part seems to more suited to army list thread but its useless tactics without a reference.
Is this a Tau army with Eldar allies or an Eldar army with Tau allies? You have picked 2 HS for the Tau and allies are only permited 1.
The only other thing you must take in consideration is who you want to be your Warlold.
Personally, I would chose the Tau Commander for his survivalability (but I have never played with Eldrad so I don't know him).
@ Edinairas, Primary Tau for multiple Broadsides and Secondary eldar as I didnt need much in terms of force organization chart, Your Primary army has to hold the warlord, Do not make the mistake of making your allies HQ your warlord, + Eldrad with a 3++ is more survivable than a Tau commander plus with Fortune makes his save much better, but as said above my warlord has to be the tau commander.
Ok, played against GK paladin tank list and a total of 3 flyers and 2 annihalation barges, played two games, first 1 I won quite significantly, what won it for me was Eldrad redeployed the broadsides and pathfinders to have clear line of sight on the Paladins, half (plus draigo) were in hiding and the other half were out when I finished deploying, it was night fight first turn and I managed with marker lights and 6 broadside shots, hit and kill 4 paladins using focus fire to deny Draigo his tanking ability. so at about 50" range 4 paladins died and the guy hid his paladins from then on as the broadsides had proven to instant kill easily against his 5+ invuln, next was the flyers, 3 flyers 1 doom scythe and two necron transports, I lost 1 unit of broadsides easily to his death ray, S10 AP1 and a line rule thats just cruel. however broadside units plus fire warriors and Wraithguard all destroyed 2 flyers including the doom scythe turn 3, so they didnt last long, turn 3 he flew his flyer off the board to come on again turn 4 which then got destroyed, at that we call it quits.
second game wasnt as successful but I had a lot to learn about using my army and made mistakes, but again flyers died to broadsides, battle barges again got destroyed by spare shots, its the paladin list that won it for him this time and again this is always going to be 1 tough unit to crack.
so actual experience, broadside can easily deal with armour but we all knew that, but flyers are 6 shots 1-2 hits easily winning against any and all armour.
Until my Wraithguard and Harlequins were gone, no one got through to the broadsides as a combat. it was only flyers and they just bypass/ignored them. going for the threat of tau, plus shield drones being characters are brilliant they work beautifully with wound allocation.
small side note i modified my list to have 3 units of 2 broadsides all equipped the same but with 1 shield drone instead of 2, but with the spare points i added pathfinders up to 7. worked really really well.
@Furiosa Can you take two Elite Slots for Allies, or are the Wraithguard Eldrad's Bodyguard?
"...And the pain was enough to make a shy, bald, Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder."
When you have 10 wraith guard you can take them with the spirit seer warlock and they're troops.
any one got any succesful 1000 point lists?
Over GWs Australian pricing policy, charging us more then 50% for that same product compared to most others? Sick of GW charging more for resin then metal??? WTF only in GW world would this be fair, cheaper product to produce, should be cheaper when selling
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How about allied with ravenwing?
Gives you some very fast moving troops and they have access to standards that gives 12" fearless bubble
Auto success on hatred if you suiecides etereal and guaranteed none runs!
or helps you with very mobile and resiliant troops
I'm not sold on the "KILL MY ETHEREAL PLEASE!" tactic. If it worked someone else said here on Warseer that it will probably work once and your opponents will wise up to it and leave him alone, thus wasting an HQ slot. It's a one trick pony
Well, after that it's about how possible it is to Charge the Ethereal into CC and how much your Opponent doesn't want that. Might be an interesting tactic of steering your Opponent's units with the Ethereal
Last edited by Akwikone; 05-09-2012 at 00:07.
"...And the pain was enough to make a shy, bald, Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder."
And now I'm getting this amusing image of an ethereal chasing after Khorne bezerkers, whilst screaming "Come back and fight me you cowards! I can take yas!!"
But anyway, as already mentioned, you don't need your opponent to kill off your ethereal. All you need is a tall enough building, and a jump to the left.
Ahhh, that made my night! :-)
Quick question regarding Remoras- the Stealth Field, should it change to the stealth suit version in the tau codex, or stick with the current version in the Apocolypse book?
New FAQs are positive for Tau.
Disruption pods now give shrouding when outside of 12". So a Tau skimmer has a 3+ cover save most of the time. I think this might make hammerheads very serious tanks.
Target locks are, inexplicably, back. After being inexplicably removed...
Drones are never characters though.
I got a kick out of the markerlight downing a flying monstrous creature thing. Especially now that not only is it grounded (if it fails the test obviously) and no longer flying, but has x number of marker targets on it.
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