Tournaments need to start using a sideboard for 40k 6th Edition.

[RandomThoughts]

Personally, I favour the Warmachine approach:
All players are allowed to bring two lists, before they game they get a few minutes to study their opponent's two lists, and then secretly choose one of their two lists to play. Both players reveal their chosen list at the same time, set up the game and deploy.

Serves the same prupose as a sideboard without the hassle of on-the-spot point cost calculations and stuff. Also opens up a bunch of interesting strategies: Say, a normal all-comers list and an anti-flyer list. Or a list designed to fight light infantry armies (Orks, Guard, Eldar, Tyranids, etc.) and one designed to counter heavy infantry armies (Marines, Grey Knights). Or an Eldar Iyanden list full of Wraith-stuff and a non-wraith list for the few games you run into Dark Eldar poison or IG pieplate spam. Or just ignore the counter-game and bring two different lists for some diversity, say a Green Tide and a Cult of Speed Ork Biker list. And watch your opponent squirm as he tries to guess which one you'll be using and which of his makes for the best counter - then when he's selected his list put out a die and declare "on 1-3 it's bikers".

Of course, none of that really counters the issue of codex imbalance, which is the real issue both here and with all claims that allies unbalance the game.

As for the Cheese vs. All-comers, the problem lies with GWs in ability to put out codexs at a decent pace. Pretty much the Modern Cheese lists tend to be all-comers lists already while requiring a very special counter by some older Codexes. Take the Leafblower list. It changed the dynamic of the game because not only could it handle everything it came up against, it also required many armies to gear out specifically to deal with it and in many cases it made them weaker versus other armies. So until that gets fixed I see no problem with a multiple list format to help the older codexes.

Very relevant!

[Poseidal]

I kinda see where the OP is coming from but i dont think it works, as has been said, too much rock/paper/scissors.

however, doesnt that necron list posted lose at the end of turn 1 due to having nothing on the board?

How is R/P/S a bad thing?

[archie-d]

How is R/P/S a bad thing?

huh?

ive turned up with rock to your scissors, i win comfortably having to do very little.
wasnt that a fun game!

oh no! youve turned up with paper to my rock! you win comfortably, having to do very little.
wasnt that a fun game!

[kaffis]

My problem with sideboards in 40k is simple: How do you fairly allow similar levels of list tinkering from the sideboard across codices that are very different in their design approaches?

The simplest example I can think of is this: Say I want to have different weapons in my sideboard. Do just the costs of the weapon upgrades count? In that event, what about free weapon swaps? If, instead, you can only place whole units in the sideboard, some codices, designed around cheap specialist units instead of larger/more expensive units with a variety of upgrade options, are way different in their design. If you allow just the upgrades to count, then you favor the armies with lots of upgrade options. If you say only whole units may be in the sideboard/swapped out, then you greatly favor armies with specialist units.

Far more appealing, to me, would be the notion of allowing 2 or 3 lists to be brought, with a requirement that some number or percentage of points must be identical between them. This creates a situation in which you design a core of your army to be versatile, and then can offer up variations upon sitting down across your opponent to counter core army elements. I think this not only promotes better list-writing, but would be far more manageable to review and referee and fair across codices.

[Carlosophy]

Competitive tournaments should be scrapped completely. Seriously. 6E is open to lots of abuse but it was made with narrative gaming in mind.

In their place tournament organisers should write a brief campaign background as to why all the different races are fighting each other. From here they create a list of themed objective cards that are handed out to players as they enter. They may not show them to other players until after a game is over. Players are then awarded points by their opponent for sportmanship, army composition and how well they have modelled and painted their armies. Points are then added for achieving the objectives on their mission card which might be 'capture 8 objectives over 3 games' or 'kill 4 warlords over 4 games'. Bonus points are awarded for good anecdotes.

[fayfay1980]

I'm always against list tailoring and sideboard is just list tailoring at it's best.

[Decius]

In their place tournament organisers should write a brief campaign background as to why all the different races are fighting each other. From here they create a list of themed objective cards that are handed out to players as they enter. They may not show them to other players until after a game is over. Players are then awarded points by their opponent for sportmanship, army composition and how well they have modelled and painted their armies. Points are then added for achieving the objectives on their mission card which might be 'capture 8 objectives over 3 games' or 'kill 4 warlords over 4 games'. Bonus points are awarded for good anecdotes.

I like the cut of your jib. I'm going to have to file that idea away for later use.

As for a side board, I think the simple version of giving everyone a 1000 point core and a couple 500 point add-ons would be the way to go. I'd be interested in a "side board" tournament not necessarily because it is more balanced, but rather because it sounds fun. Is that not the point of tournaments?

[Vsurma]

To OP:

Your idea fail because it doesn't work. Good intention, but fail in practice.

Example:
I bring strong flyer list (ROCK) and my sideboard is FOOT list (SCISSOR)

You bring strong ground force (foot troops)(SCISSOR) and sideboard included lots of anti-flyer.(PAPER)

So you see my list and change to anti-flyer(PAPER) and I know you will switch to anti flyer... so I switch to FOOT list.(SCISSOR)


In other words.... it becomes "luck side board"anyway... because you don't know what he will take out or will he just keep everything the same.

So in practice .... you just made everything more complicated and achieve nothing... but create more wasted time of rock paper scissor.

REMEMBER.... Not only YOU get to pick what to take out... your enemy also get to pick.

This would work if your sideboard was a complete army, if it was 1500pts core and 500pts sideboard I don't think it would work.

If you brought 2k flier list, saw that I had anti-air core or side, what can you really do? sure you can trade 500pts out so now your 1500pts flier and 500pts ground but is that really helping you?

On the other hand the opponent who had 2k balanced and saw your 2k flier, he might see that the game is over before it starts, he switches in his 500pts of AA and at least now you can play a game with some chance.

It seems to me like this would work fine. I don't think it turns the game into rock/paper/scissors if the amount you can change is limited to 1/3 of your army or so. I think it would lead to more balanced games.

[Poseidal]

huh?

ive turned up with rock to your scissors, i win comfortably having to do very little.
wasnt that a fun game!

oh no! youve turned up with paper to my rock! you win comfortably, having to do very little.
wasnt that a fun game!

And the sideboard makes it less of an issue than a predetermined list. The rock-paper-scissors decision is made at the start of the game rather than entirely before hand. Also, having the counters increases the rock-paper-scissors position.

If the game were entirely balanced, it would revolve around getting your rocks, papers and scissors in the army positioned against their scissors, rocks and papers respectively. The entire game is a sequence of different rock-paper-scissors decisions (actually not just this game); if there wasn't this indirect counter system then it boils down to better dice rolls with not tactical element.

Note that it's not hard rock paper scissors (i.e. Hard Counters) but more of a soft rock paper scissors with soft counters (for the most part) rather than hard ones. The game is a lot 'greyer' or 'blurred' than a series of hard r/p/s interactions (which adds interest, along with the asymmetry of different factions.)

In principle anyway.

[Asymmetric]

Personally, I favour the Warmachine approach:

I don't have a huge objection to the 2 list format. It does potentially make carting around 2 full armies a bit of a pain in the ass. I quite like forcing people to use the "core" of there army (ala the first 1,000 points) but being allowed to adapt with a couple of 500 point bolt on's as strategic response to there opponent, opening new dynamics to the game.




As for the rock/paper/scissors discussion being had elsewhere. If you design a list that can be completely countered by someone changing 500 points in there list then you simply deserve to lose. To many lists are built with a "I can beat XXX but I pray I don't run into YYY or I lose" mentality. The sideboard means you build a solid sturdy core to your army, and then use the sideboard as a response to fighting an army built on a concept taken to an extreme.

[Gaargod]

As for the rock/paper/scissors discussion being had elsewhere. If you design a list that can be completely countered by someone changing 500 points in there list then you simply deserve to lose. To many lists are built with a "I can beat XXX but I pray I don't run into YYY or I lose" mentality. The sideboard means you build a solid sturdy core to your army, and then use the sideboard as a response to fighting an army built on a concept taken to an extreme.

I'd agree with that. As it happens, I'm fairly sure the OP's Necron list is illegal (maximum 50% of reserves), but it's not difficult to imagine a similar list. Consider, perhaps, the Ork Shooty Tide (patent pending) of 180 shoota boys and 30 lootas. Screw vehicles, why does it need them? Sheer weight of shots will do for most things, including flyers. If, however, you took 500pts of anti-horde, that will work very well against them.


Of course, in practice, there's another problem with your sideboard. At the moment, I'd take a balanced all-comers list, with those 500 extra points probably split into dealing with 2+ save heavy armies and flyers. Because those are currently the most rock-paper-scissory armies going around (Land Raiders too, but not nearly so much), as they both resolve round 1/6 odds of being hurt unless you have the right weaponry, in numbers.

[Asymmetric]

Imhotekh

Nightscythe
- 5xWarriors
- Chronotek

Nightscythe
- 5xWarriors
- Storm Tek, voltaic staff

Nightscythe
- 5xWarriors

Nightscythe
- 5xWarriors

Doomscythe

Doomscythe

Doomscythe

1,500 points

As it happens, I'm fairly sure the OP's Necron list is illegal (maximum 50% of reserves), but it's not difficult to imagine a similar list.

theres aloooooooooooooooooooooooooot of text to read through on the replies in this thread so i dont know if anyone else raised this point but the necron list you used as an example in the OP's post i was wondering if you had considered the fact the new rulebook says "If at the end of any turn your opponent has no models on the table they lose by default " so in essence if someone fielded that list against me id be fine with it as i would win in turn 1 without doing anything as its all in reserve hehe

I've seen two criticisms labelled at the initial list I used as an example.

1) It's illegal because you can't deploy more than 50% of you forces in reserve.

This is incorrect. Page 124 of the rule book

"when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (round up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as single unit for these purposes"

2) If the army has no units on the board at the end of a turn, it automatically loses.

True. But this army deploys with 1 unit on the table. Imhotekh the Stormlord.

Can you kill Imhotekh the stormlord with night fighting in effect and him hiding out of line of sight behind a piece of terrain and having a 2+/3++ save T5 and 3 wounds in your first turn? Some armies might. Shooty Daemons deepstriking turn 1 spring to mind, but not many all comers lists.


For everyone else, your going to have to deal with those fliers.