Am I crazy to start Wood Elves?

[Urgat]

1. Glade guard lists are going to out alpha strike pretty much any shooting out there. I have faced enemy shooting many times and it's a simple matter of moving up and shooting them off the board (at which point you can go into hiding since you have enough points for the win).

How'd you deal with my common goblin horde (100 gobs, shields and short bows)? I think I'd outshoot you severely, and that's not taking into account the rest of the army (wolf riders with bows, wolf chariots with bows, doom diver, etc, and the fact I actually can get in melee once the shootout is over) ...

[Malorian]

How'd you deal with my common goblin horde (100 gobs, shields and short bows)? I think I'd outshoot you severely, and that's not taking into account the rest of the army (wolf riders with bows, wolf chariots with bows, doom diver, etc, and the fact I actually can get in melee once the shootout is over) ...

All the variables aren't there, but basically the 100 gobs have a 22 inch threat range, so at the start of the game I would stay out of that while I take out the wolves and pick away at the chariots.

Doom divers pose a major threat but I may ignore them if magic is going my way (they kill 3 models a turn out of blocks of 10 and then I have regrowth).

The next big question is where is the general. If in a bunker I'm going to hit that thing with everything I have because if I can knock it out then I can go for panic tests on the horde. If not it's a matter of running around the block. Sure it can swift reform and shoot at me, but then you are at -1 for moving and only get the front 2 ranks. 20 shots that hit on 5+ and wound on 4+ with a 6+ save only means 3 dead models which is acceptable.

Once past the main block I can rush the warmachines if I want and dance until the end.


If we are talking about multiple hordes of 100 goblins with bows that go from table edge to table edge then you might as well make it watchtower too while you're making it the perfect counter.

Then again, it should be noted that I have NEVER seen a list like that in tournaments.

[Jal]

1. Glade guard lists are going to out alpha strike pretty much any shooting out there. I have faced enemy shooting many times and it's a simple matter of moving up and shooting them off the board (at which point you can go into hiding since you have enough points for the win).

2. The vast majority of armies don't typically take magic missiles and if they do guess what spell I'm going to throw all my dice at stopping. Worst case scenario I get hit and then regrow. If I'm feeling mean I take the item that lets me reroll dispel dice.

3. Go ahead. Most of the time I'm far enough back that it doesn't matter (hurray for free stand and shoot!) If you come too close I run by you. If I need to flee (even with several units) who cares since I'm fast cav and will rally and move and shoot again.

4. Lizardmen are jerks... If they are skink heavy they are a problem, but if not you focus on them first (they are pretty easy to kill) and then run circles around the rest.


People need to seriously at least try running an all glade guard army before they knock it. In the hands of a skilled player they are VERY deadly and almost impossible to beat. Your biggest fear is not return shooting but rather horde armies that go from board edge to board edge.


P.S. tmarichards I'm still waiting for you to win more games than you lose in a tournament using no slann.

Think you've missed the point - Tom's response was with regard to the "glade rider/warhawk spam" list the post above his.

[Urgat]

All the variables aren't there, but basically the 100 gobs have a 22 inch threat range, so at the start of the game I would stay out of that while I take out the wolves and pick away at the chariots.

Doom divers pose a major threat but I may ignore them if magic is going my way (they kill 3 models a turn out of blocks of 10 and then I have regrowth).

The next big question is where is the general. If in a bunker I'm going to hit that thing with everything I have because if I can knock it out then I can go for panic tests on the horde. If not it's a matter of running around the block. Sure it can swift reform and shoot at me, but then you are at -1 for moving and only get the front 2 ranks. 20 shots that hit on 5+ and wound on 4+ with a 6+ save only means 3 dead models which is acceptable.

Once past the main block I can rush the warmachines if I want and dance until the end.


If we are talking about multiple hordes of 100 goblins with bows that go from table edge to table edge then you might as well make it watchtower too while you're making it the perfect counter.

Then again, it should be noted that I have NEVER seen a list like that in tournaments.

Only one such horde, I run it because that's how I see my goblins actually fighting, if I wanted to go cheese, I'd probably go for night goblins, or stop playing all gobs altogether.
Anyway I wouldn't play as you'd describe (well I would try not to at least), I'd stick to one side of the battlefield and sweep from there, so you only got one side to run from, that much at least you couldn't counter. Chariots and wolves would stay on the open flank of the horde. If you're running around, you either have to get dangerously close to being charged (if you want to get out of LoS of the horde), or remain in the horde's LoS, and then it's either you keep at long range and pose little threat to it, or you come close and I go volley shot (it's harder to get out of range of the short bows now that they're 18" and not 12"), and that should wipe out one of your units a turn if they dare try it. If I still can't catch you, I'll reform 20 wide (there's nothing in the list that would make me feel threatened if I only had 5 ranks). The general is in the horde, with the BSB (spider banner - poison shots), and I keep the trolls close to charge whatever would want to engage them in melee (which would be stupid anyway). Not saying it's bulletproof, but considering some of the punishment my goblins have had to deal with up till now, that list of yours isn't really scary in my mind. I'd have to see it work properly to be sure of course, but it's fragile, with a low model count, and you focus on shooting when there's actually not much shooting to speak of. Resurrecting stuff is nice and all, but you got to have minis alive to actually be able to do so... And we're talking low level points, right, not 2500? Because I'm only considering the basic built for a low point game on my side.
And I don't play tourneys, I don't have to conform to whatever philosophy they stick with
Ah, yeah, but that being said, we couldn't play, I play scenarios, and your list wouldn't even be able to play a third of them.

[Malorian]

Think you've missed the point - Tom's response was with regard to the "glade rider/warhawk spam" list the post above his.

No, this is something we argue about often.

Only one such horde. But I wouldn't play as you'd describe, I'd stick to one side of the battlefield and sweep from there, so you only got one side to run from. Chariots and wolves would stay on the open side. If you're running around, you either have to get dangerously close to being charged, or remain in the horde's LoS, and then it's either you keep at long range and pose little threat to it, or you come close and I go volley shot, and that should wipe out one of your units a turn if they dare try it. The general is in the horde, with the BSB (spider banner), and I keep the trolls close to charge whatever would want to engage them in melee (which would be stupid anyway). Not saying it's bulletproof, but considering some of the punishment my goblins have had to deal with up till now, that list of yours isn't really scary. And we're talking low level points, right, not 2500? Because I'm only considering the basic built for a low point game on my side.
And I don't play tourneys, I don't have to conform to whatever philosophy they stick with

I think that would be the wrong way to play them. If the horde is on one flank then it's even easier to avoid.

Keeping the general in the unit will mean the big block will have to be avoided completely since I can never hope for you to fail a leadership, at least not with a probability worth the effort. So everything would go into the support units.

How many points are you thinking? Do you have an example list?

[tmarichards]

The problem with the idea of simply running past people with Glade Riders is that it's very easy to play against. Purely Glade Rider shooting just doesn't kill very much, so all you need to do to wipe it off the board is deploy your main combat units 20-30+ wide and march/charge forwards making sure that the Glade Riders physically cannot fit through the gaps. You very quickly run out of room to hide.

Admittedly, this doesn't occur to many people. I'm always happy when I play against someone with a knight bus and they deploy it 5 wide, it makes it far easier to handle.

[Urgat]

I changed a couple bits in my post above. I have no lists handy, but that's about my 1500pts list above (I do love half-point upgrades, my common gobs have gone a whole point cheaper since last edition. The horde is about a third of the 1500 pts list). I save a lot of points on hero choices so I can bring lots of bodies on the table. No doubt it'd be easy for you to avoid it, but the rest of my army staying basically a bit behind on its flank, if you want to get anything at all, you would have to step in sooner or later, and you may be fast, but so are my fast units Well of course, I'd try and shoot your eagles with my doodiver, and then you'd get the points for it as it never fails to misfire itself to oblivion

Oh, wanted to clarify, I'm not trying to claim mine is bigger than yours, I'm not vain like that, I'm trying to weed out weaknesses in the case I'd have to face a list similar to the one you're describing. Maybe a couple warbosses on wolf with wardsaves or antishooting stuff to hunt down stuff could be handy?

edit: thinking about it, and reading tmarichards post (he's got a hell of a point), I'll amend my first post again (but I'll do it here coz it's getting messy), there's really no melee punch at all in the WE list, why the heck should I keep 5 ranks in the horde? I could safely reform 30 or even 40 wide (nah, not 50, I tend to lose to freak dice and I better not tempt luck). Would be hard to run from that.

[Malorian]

The problem with the idea of simply running past people with Glade Riders is that it's very easy to play against. Purely Glade Rider shooting just doesn't kill very much, so all you need to do to wipe it off the board is deploy your main combat units 20-30+ wide and march/charge forwards making sure that the Glade Riders physically cannot fit through the gaps. You very quickly run out of room to hide.

Admittedly, this doesn't occur to many people. I'm always happy when I play against someone with a knight bus and they deploy it 5 wide, it makes it far easier to handle.

That's harder to pull off than it seems. If you try doing this with a weaker unit than the glade riders can actually charge and break the unit if you are in a single rank.

The other way around is that shooting losses quickly make gaps (assuming you aren't running units of 100 which I know you don't).

Finally you can break up formations by sacrificing a unit.

The important thing is that once there is a crack the entire thing falls apart.

I changed a couple bits in my post above. I have no lists handy, but that's about my 1500pts list above (I do love half-point upgrades, my common gobs have gone a whole point cheaper since last edition. The horde is about a third of the 1500 pts list). I save a lot of points on hero choices so I can bring lots of bodies on the table. No doubt it'd be easy for you to avoid it, but the rest of my army staying basically a bit behind on its flank, if you want to get anything at all, you would have to step in sooner or later, and you may be fast, but so are my fast units Well of course, I'd try and shoot your eagles with my doodiver, and then you'd get the points for it as it never fails to misfire itself to oblivion

edit: thinking about it, and reading tmarichards post (he's got a hell of a point), I'll amend my first post again (but I'll do it here coz it's getting messy), there's really no melee punch at all in the WE list, why the heck should I keep 5 ranks in the horde? I could safely reform 30 or even 40 wide (nah, not 50, I tend to lose to freak dice and I better not tempt luck). Would be hard to run from that.

At 1500 you are looking at:

Lvl 3 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring 283

10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders 240
10 glade riders 240
9 glade riders 216

Total: 1495

It's not enough shots to threaten 100 goblins, but enough to take out the support.

All it comes down to is keeping enough away from the horde, and keeping losses to a minimum so that you are at least 100 victory points ahead.

And addressing your edit above, the only mission this lists fails at it the watchtower. A mission you almost never see in tournaments.

[Jal]

[QUOTE=Malorian;6318367]No, this is something we argue about often.



QUOTE]


And this is one of the reason I avoid Warseer unless I have nothing else to do at work - you'll find I'm right, go re-read page 2 and the flow of posts.

A list built almost purely on fast cav (and over-priced fast cav at that) unless Dark riders, won't be able to effetively bring enough shots to bear reliably to make much of a difference. If Glade Riders had Glade Guard bows then it'd be different

[Malorian]

A list built almost purely on fast cav (and over-priced fast cav at that) unless Dark riders, won't be able to effetively bring enough shots to bear reliably to make much of a difference. If Glade Riders had Glade Guard bows then it'd be different

You don't need to be overly effective. All you need to do is kill 100 points of support units and avoid taking losses.

It's not about arrows wiping out the core of the army and killing the general, it all about the fact that if you are ahead by 100 points you win and if the opponent isn't scoring any points then it's not that hard to do.

Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcqxFaWkBQ

[Urgat]

At 1500 you are looking at:

Lvl 3 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring 283

10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders 240
10 glade riders 240
9 glade riders 216

Total: 1495

It's not enough shots to threaten 100 goblins, but enough to take out the support.

All it comes down to is keeping enough away from the horde, and keeping losses to a minimum so that you are at least 100 victory points ahead.

And addressing your edit above, the only mission this lists fails at it the watchtower. A mission you almost never see in tournaments.

I see... so if we accept it's unlikely I can sucker you into firing range of the horde, the correct action would be for me to bunker in a corner with my support units behind the horde, and hope to get lucky with the doomdiver and the shaman... hargh, that sounds boring as hell ><

As for the scenarios, I was somehow thinking you had no banners in there.

[Malorian]

I see... so if we accept it's unlikely I can sucker you into firing range of the horde, the correct action would be for me to bunker in a corner with my support units behind the horde, and hope to get lucky with the doomdiver and the shaman... hargh, that sounds boring as hell ><

As for the scenarios, I was somehow thinking you had no banners in there.

It really is a different kind of game. If you show up with this kind of list and your opponent is caught with his typical build he can be in a lot of trouble. Not only will he probably not have the tools to deal with you, but he will also misplay it as it's a situation they aren't used to.

I'm VERY used to dealing with this since there is a healthy number of wood elve players in the area.

In a local campaign we had recently the forces of evil pretty much always beat the forces of good, but me and one other wood elve player using evasion tactics would stop them in their tracks (except for watch tower...).


I just wish people would at least try it before they bash it.

[Urgat]

Well, at least, if it ever happens to me, I should know what to expect. Well it's always been a kind of hide and seek game against WE anyway, this one's just the most extreme version of it. Once, I asked a friend what he would think if I fielded an army made entirely of units of 5 wolf riders (basically the same list as yours I guess, with quantity instead of quality). He told me I would play on my own >>

[Malorian]

I thought about doing it with wolves (or spiders) but animosity ruins it for them. Not only do they not have the range or BS of the wood elves but 1 in every 6 units are going to do something you don't want them to.

I completely understand your friend though. It can be VERY frustrating to play against.

[Urgat]

Yeah, animosity, well, I've always dealt with it by presenting a flank and keeping outside of charging arcs, so if it stays there, they shouldn't be charged, and if they decide to move forward, better move away than charge something you didn't want to (that's something you learn very early as a greenskin player, don't stand facing too close to something you don't want to charge, your guys can be a bit over-enthusiastic at times). I shall add that the friend I mentioned plays chaos warriors (and he never bought a hellcanon).

[DrMooreFlava]

I got one to the OP

Wait to start Woodies till u get new models + hard cover army book! (Granted this is going to a long wait)

I've been saving $$ for demons cuz im banking on the new greater demon models to be nasty. (Granted this is going to be a long wait)