Is anyone else seeing challenges fail to deliver?

[KharnTheBetrayer01]

...Does no-one read the fluff? Heroically throwing themselves into the jaws of death so the squad and their favoured rookie can come back and win later is what Space Marine Sargent's are for. Every single short story anthology has at least one tale, usually told from the rookies P.O.V, where the badass leader of the squad will sacrifice himself for the good of the mission. Be it trying to distract an Ork Biker Boss, Slapping a Melta-bomb onto a bridge with no chance of escape, tackling a Tyranid off of a cliff or locking the door and facing a daemonhost alone, it always happens. Now we can recreate that in game.

Alternatively, people can start looking into ways of making their characters better in combat with new and exciting wargear options. Remember, if you're low Toughness, aim to have higher initiative.

[Ruination Drinker]

Fine.

At 2k I'll start fielding 8 squads of Nobs and come back to check the amount of butthurt. That's 2 Troops, and 6 Elites for those of you counting at home.

Have fun playing whack-a-mole with the PK and the Boss buried in those units.

[mercury14]

Fine.

At 2k I'll start fielding 8 squads of Nobs and come back to check the amount of butthurt. That's 2 Troops, and 6 Elites for those of you counting at home.

Have fun playing whack-a-mole with the PK and the Boss buried in those units.

Shrug. I play units of 10 warlocks plus farseer with re-rollable 4++. Tiny warlocks will keep 250 pt characters locked up forever. And if your squad size is a little small my warlock gets a 4++ with twin re-rolls, meaning it will take about ten thunder hammer hits to bring him down.

This is lame.

[Daemonia]

In a game I played yesterday with my Guardsmen against a mate's Ultramarines, my Junior Officer managed to kill two Sergeants with power fists because he uses a power sword. S3 or not, 4 attacks give you a reasonable chance to wound a Space Marine. Sure the rest of his squad were absolutely butchered but hey, it's a man's life in the Death Korps.

[Nubl0]

But challenges can be fun! Im by no means a super fluff nut but when that punk dante and co assaulted the grand pharon that is Imoktek I was all up for teaching him a lesson. Sure I could have had my lord with MSS and scythe take the challenge but it felt right for imotek to step up. Plus amazingly he pimped slapped the sissy marine down anyway! Granted he had taken 2 wounds already from overwatch fire but... oh well :P

[DJElam]

I haven't had a chance to play 6th but I can see the end of my IG in combat. Cause unless the other guy is going at I1, my guys will be long dead before they can fight back. Only my best chatacters would have any hope of living long enough to attack back against a plain old space marine sargent with a power sword. And almost none if their up against an IC. My best hope is to run plain offices so when they die, the loss doesn't hurt so much.

I've had some luck in close combat but that's only because of teamwork of the squid and chatacters, not by throwing the enemy sacrificial lambs.

I can see what they were going for, but what works for fantasy doesn't work for 40k. That's how I see it anyway, after all I can tool up a mare hero to at lest live along enough to hopefully hurt your monster of a lord. But how is it anywhere close to a fight(or even fun) when my company commander can easly die to a space sergeant with a power sword. "Heroically" not for the guard, but 100% pure stupidity. If i had such a guy in my army I'd do a commissar and shot them in the head before he gets everyone else killed.

[Vaktathi]

I imagine this is coming from players not used to Herohammer having their lowly 70pts HQ knocked out of the field by a 200pts monster. In other words, your army should be led by a character strong enough to take his equal and take on infantry at the same time.

So, Eldar with their mighty...S3 T3 W3 3+sv ~100pt combat heroes? Imperial Guard with their mighty WS4 S3 T3 I3 5+sv combat heroes? Not everyone even has the option to take 200pt combat monsters.


Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

[The Underdog]

Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

I think it's that part that's the major problem however - add in the overkill rule from fantasy however (up to 5 'wounds' can be caused over and above those on the losing characters profile which then counts towards combat resolution for those unfamiliar with it) and suddenly Sergeant McCheapo can still keep his squad alive but seeing him butchered so horribly will have a huge effect on their morale and won't necessarily mean the combat character is totally neutered.

All in all i like that GW added the challenges as it seems like a step in the right direction, they just didn't quite get 100% success with this one, though with the sweeping changes this edition it's not like I expected 100% on everything anyway.

[mercury14]

I think it's that part that's the major problem however - add in the overkill rule from fantasy however (up to 5 'wounds' can be caused over and above those on the losing characters profile which then counts towards combat resolution for those unfamiliar with it) and suddenly Sergeant McCheapo can still keep his squad alive but seeing him butchered so horribly will have a huge effect on their morale and won't necessarily mean the combat character is totally neutered.

All in all i like that GW added the challenges as it seems like a step in the right direction, they just didn't quite get 100% success with this one, though with the sweeping changes this edition it's not like I expected 100% on everything anyway.

It's puzzling why they didn't include that rule.

But it would only solve one of the two problems at hand. The second one being that some armies lack HQs with solid CC ability (or very valuable 1-wound models such as Eldar Exarchs that source the whole unit with abilities) and just get bullied out of everything... and the overwhelming role ID plays.

[The Underdog]

Hmm, interesting. On a further read through of the challenge rules, it looks possible that overkill has been implemented - just not as clearly as in fantasy (which makes me wonder if I'm imagining things).

Anyway - the rules on p.65 state that 'Unsaved wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units' Th interesting part comes from the fact that following the wound allocation rules seems to lead me to create a 'pool' of unsaved wounds before these are allocated to anyone. Therefore my challenge logic would be that Nasty Character A causes say 4 wounds which lowly sergeant B fails to save. These are what count to combat res, despite only one of them needing to be applied to kill lowly sergeant B. Am I wrong in this?

Also, the point about not all armies having nasty death dealers is very valid but that still applies in fantasy and doesn't seem to impact the game to badly - for example very few Skaven warlords can survive against nasty combat characters but that doesn't seem to stop Skaven being a powerful army and this applies across a wide variety of fantasy armies. I think this problem will become less of an issue as 40k players adapt to having challenge rules, and as more true 6th ed codexes are released.

[ehlijen]

Underdog:

P26 states that only wounds actually suffered count towards combat resolution and the challenge rules do not override this.

[Decius]

I think allowing challenges to be ignored/refused/cancelled with the "look out sir" rule might go a ways to balancing them.

Say, an attacker issued a challenge, the defender may...
1 Accept the challenge, resolved as is now (both attack each other, mano e mano)
2 Refuse the challenge, resolved as is now (can't attack, pee self)
3 Attempt to Ignore the challenge, resolved as a "look out sir!" (4+, or 2+ for ICs).
- If the test passes, challenge is cancelled and both units fight as if there was no challenge issued,
representing some plucky trooper getting in the way and causing a free-for-all. Or, a SGT saying "What am I an idiot? Fill it with las boys!"
- Test failed, challenge was accepted after all...
- If the character is alone, no opportunity to refuse, as it is now (the "nowhere to hide" rule).
- Maybe allow all monstrous creature a constant 4+ chance to ignore challenges, even if alone.
Call it the "You're all beneath me!" rule.

I may have just invented a house rule for my buddy and I. Excuse me...

[Ruination Drinker]

[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

[Decius]

[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

While I do like the idea of that thematically, I would agree with you that it seems a little much. A challenger should not always count on their challenges getting accepted with honour. Try my house rule!

Seriously though, try my house rule and tell me how it goes. I want to know if it's crap or gold.

[TheDoctor]

So, Eldar with their mighty...S3 T3 W3 3+sv ~100pt combat heroes? Imperial Guard with their mighty WS4 S3 T3 I3 5+sv combat heroes? Not everyone even has the option to take 200pt combat monsters.


Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

*cough* Phoenix Lords *cough*

Played a 1500 pt game against Grey Knights today, and I had a 10 man storm guardian unit with an enhance lock, a fortune/doom farseer, and a Corsair Void Dreamer (with BRB powers). Topped it off with Fuegan.

I had fun walking through termies like they weren't there. My rangers sniped the sarge out of a 10 man termie squad, and after all was said and done, there was a Librarian and 3 dudes. Fuegan and friends waded in there, I issued a challenge, got the Librarian to sit in the back and do nothing. Fuegan then hacked apart 3 termies and put a wound on the Librarian (re-rolling everything is amazing), then my Guardians proceeded to kill the Librarian.
Total casualties to me? None.

I like the new challenge rules.
That squad setup also gets around the griping of "cheap sarge takes one for the team". If they tried it, my lowly warlock would accept the challenge.

Also, different point- I like the new Wound Allocation. Taking hits from the front on a re-rollable 2+ armor with feel no pain, and with a 2+look out sir is pure awesome.

[Ruination Drinker]

Seriously though, try my house rule and tell me how it goes. I want to know if it's crap or gold.

I was thinking something along the same lines for my games. Basically a save to refuse the challenge, it should be called "Wot wuz dat?" because the character couldn't hear the challenge over the din of battle... or so he would like you to believe.

[Misfratz]

Though I imagine it will be the slow death of powerfists in the meta.

Bingo!

Hidden powerfists were too strong, to the extent that they were judged to be mandatory by the meta, and the introduction of challenges, and also the wound allocation rules, both act to make it more risky to spend so many points on an upgrade for a relatively weak squad sergeant/nob/whatever.

Time will tell whether GW have judged this just right, or moved the balance too far in the other direction.

[MiyamatoMusashi]

...Does no-one read the fluff? Heroically throwing themselves into the jaws of death so the squad and their favoured rookie can come back and win later is what Space Marine Sargent's are for.

Yes, but that was never the point. Brutally and unstoppably slaughtering everything they come across is what Eldar Avatars are for. I can understand the Sergeant sacrificing himself (even though all those short stories you mention are tiresomely predictable, but yes they're always there) but he wouldn't actually get any further than "stand back men, I'll sa--!" before the Suin Daellae cut him in half and then the Avatar ploughed into the rest of his squad.

The problem isn't the Sergeant issuing the challenge (or at least, that is a problem but it's consistent with the setting, as the setting has plenty of idiocy). The problem is the Avatar being forced to give a ******* about the challenge just for a crappy rules mechanic.

[Baaltor]

I like this rule, and the fact that everybody's unhappy with it affirms my belief that it's balanced. People who want their monsters to blast through units unimpeded, and those who want their wimpy characters to be able to snipe troopers off from the sideline both hate it!

People seem to think that issuing a challenge is just bellowing out to the biggest ork out there: "Hey, you feel like fighting? It's cool if you don't, I sorta had plans this battle, but I feel like doing something around 6ish". No, it's the character calling out the enemy, and going TO them themselves. Have any of you ever been in a fight? It's hard enough to avoid someone when you can run, but it's worse when you're bound to stay. To make matters worse, the squad mates of the challenger are HELPING him get to grips with his enemy by clearing space for him.

And as for challenges supposed to be close fought, that's a myth. Challenges existed in real life to tie up the stronger warriors with weaker ones, and to defeat important officers. Occasionally it was between two evenly matched individuals, but that's more likely to be personal, what kind of strategy is that? It's the lol, let's roll dice an' see what happens strategy. If you want that you may want to consider competitive dice rolling.

[ehlijen]

[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

Why did the warlock accept? Just refuse, don't worry about the 1 or 2 less attacks you get and try to fight him with the wraithguard. Though, of course, if a terminator gets into combat with the wraithguard, things aren't going well for them anyway.

Yes, but that was never the point. Brutally and unstoppably slaughtering everything they come across is what Eldar Avatars are for. I can understand the Sergeant sacrificing himself (even though all those short stories you mention are tiresomely predictable, but yes they're always there) but he wouldn't actually get any further than "stand back men, I'll sa--!" before the Suin Daellae cut him in half and then the Avatar ploughed into the rest of his squad.

The problem isn't the Sergeant issuing the challenge (or at least, that is a problem but it's consistent with the setting, as the setting has plenty of idiocy). The problem is the Avatar being forced to give a ******* about the challenge just for a crappy rules mechanic.

You mean the incarnation of the arrogant god of war of an arrogant race wouldn't rejoice in the opportunity to prove his prowess by demonstrating his superior skill? He is the god or war, not of slaughter.

And this 'my background says I'm unbeatable' vs 'my background says I'm unstoppable' isn't going to go anywhere. On the tabletop neither is true.