a few quick eldar questions

[bountylord]

I am not getting the rulebook until friday but am making a list for a tourny on saturday so i thought i would ask a few questions to make sure im not including units that shouldnt be played in 6th edition.


How many weapons can a vyper shoot after going 12?
Can Fire dragons still move 12 jump out and shoot?
What stats are witchblades?
What cover save do jetbikes get at different distances? Is full out 48 inches now?
Are minimum Dire avenger squads still usable in 6th?
Are infantry required to be out of a transport to control and objective?
And finally, are glances more deadly translating into s6 spam being more effective? (SL on more tanks?)


If someone had time to address some or all of these I would be incredibly greatful as im stressing over how to build a competative list when I dont know whats competative or not. Thanks in advance!

~Bountylord~

[Magicafiend]

Read the rulebook, all of these are answered explicitly except for the one about dire avengers, who are trash now. Go with rangers(who rock now) or ally in a haemonculus and some wracks for a durable cheap scoring unit.

[bountylord]

I would read the rules except for the fact that I will not receive it until a few hours before the tornament. That is why I am interested in the rules now as I need to have my army list done before I receive the rulebook. So, currently Im thinking a seer council, pathfinders, maybe some jetbikes, fire prism, fire dragons in serpents, and then allied DE with a haemy and wyches w/ haywires in a raider with a voidbomber. The tourny is 1850 and I should be facing mostly mechanized armies of guard, tau, marines, and horde orks. I felt so confident about 5th but I just dont know what to expect in 6th.

[Erik_Morkai]

Witchblade still wounds infantry as it used to.

Against vehicules it's the character's Strength with the same bonus as a chain-fist. In other words, not quite as good as they were.

I agree with Magicafiend, Pathfinders do rock.

[Magicafiend]

Drop the fireprism it sucks this edition(holofields are worthless now with 3 glances being able to kill any eldar vehicle). Seer council is good, take Eldrad if on foot, he's godly in this edition. All vehicles except for flyers are wet paper bags so don't expect them to last longer than turn 2. Pathfinders are our only troops choice worth taking now, unless you ally in something. Dragons in serpents are still good for suicide duty if you can fortune the turbo boosting serpent. Otherwise it will get wrecked by fire turn 1. If you are going second without sufficient terrain its pretty much an auto lose. Expect all vehicles to be dead turn one without good cover saves. You also can no longer reserve your entire army(1/2 only rounding up) and if you have nothing left on the board at the end of any turn you are tabled(even if half your army is still in reserve). Not fun vs guard whose massive indirect firepower can easily take stuff out wherever it is on the board. vehicles can only move 6" before you disembark so witches in a raider have a much smaller threat range now. Also fleet gives you rerolls to charge and no longer allows you to assault after running so witches took another hit. Witches with haywire grenades destroy any vehicles in the game on average so that's something at atleast. And you can throw one grenade per squad per turn which is pretty good with haywires.

Any tourney being played without players having a solid understanding of the rules is just a terrible idea also. It's going to be a complete mess.

Witch blades are now 3+2d6 for armor pen but singing spears are still S9 when being thrown. Fast vehicles can shoot 2 weapons normally when going 12" and any other weapons(no blasts or templates) at BS1

Flyers can shoot 4 weapons when moving 18-36", max 2 missiles per turn.

Jetbikes get 5+ cover if they moved at all last turn and 4+ if they go flat out.

[bobafett_h]

Drop the fireprism it sucks this edition(holofields are worthless now with 3 glances being able to kill any eldar vehicle).

No way, the Fire Prism suddenly got better with the new blast weapon rules. No longer needing hole of the template centred and not being reduced to half strength makes it far easier for a Prism Cannon to kill tanks and just do more damage to things in general. The Holofield is not worthless now, but it is certainly not as good as it was and is unfortunately even more overpriced because of the nerf. Re-rolls on the damage tables from pens will still help avoid being destroyed from one lascannon shot, but yes, it does nothing with regards to hull points which have the potential to take out a vehicle in one turn if it gets shot at enough.

Transports have been nerfed by no longer allowing units to disembark after moving more than 6" unless it is an open-topped or assault vehicle. So to get the Dragons into range quickly, you need to forego shooting from the Serpent for a turn and move flat out instead the turn before you disembark.

[bountylord]

Hummn, thats really interesting... Maybe a footdar army is going to be the new norm.

So lets say I run a jetcouncil for around 500 pts
Eldrad for 210 pts
2x 5 pathfinders 240 pts
3 jetbikes 76 pts

10 harlequins w/ 2 fusion pistols troupe master and shadowsser --pts

Wraithlord w/ scatter laser and star cannon
(3) warwalkers
I wish I had another wraithlord but atm I dont.

Ideally I then run 10 wracks with a haemy and then a voidbomber however I dont have wracks. I may then run some wyches with haywire grenades instead and put them in a raider or bring a few to suicide in and destroy ****.

Atleast with the eldar they have either insane toughness or a 2+ save for almost everything. This may lead to a pretty usable list even if it wasnt playable in 5th. You guys think something like this may work?

[Magicafiend]

Could work, kinda risky in that your only anti air has 2 shots(with its lances) but I'm looking at running something similar. I wish there were plastic wracks, the finecast ones suck and are super expensive. Would you run a fortune seer on a jetbike for the seer council or not both with it?

[bountylord]

Could work, kinda risky in that your only anti air has 2 shots(with its lances) but I'm looking at running something similar. I wish there were plastic wracks, the finecast ones suck and are super expensive. Would you run a fortune seer on a jetbike for the seer council or not both with it?

I'm kinda confused what you mean. Yes I would run a fortune seer in the council but not a second if thats what you mean. I would have eldrad for my 2+ reroallable or whatever I would want to use the powers for.

[Hendarion]

Hummn, thats really interesting... Maybe a footdar army is going to be the new norm.

No, its not. An all-Vyper/Jump/Falcon army is, with some Pathfinders to back up.

Forget about Harlequins (ok, this depends on how the tourney reads the FAQ) and Jetcouncil though. Too costly for what they offer (now).

[Aliarzathanil]

I've played two games as Eldar so far (vs GKs and Blood Angels) and I found falcons much better as they are harder to suppress and can move 12 and fire two weapons; wave serpents with two guns benefit in the same way. The jink save helps a lot against shooting now.

Harlies are good as a counter charge unit as long as they can stay in cover. Without some trees, they're super fragile.

Rangers are great.

Small Dire Avenger units in WS are of dubious value as scoring units.

Warp Spiders can actually kill tanks now through hull point attrition.

You only need one Autarch to make reserves arrive on a 2+

[bountylord]

hummnn, so you think vypers are going to actually be playable now that they can move 12 inches and fire. I guess since they were already av10 and open top if a bolter looked at them they died so only have two hull points isnt to much of a nerf and if anything may make them more survivable... hummnn interesting I always wanted to use them in my games.
So, I could run 3 falcons with EML's? and then full squad of harlies. (how many warp spiders do you think I should run. I feel like 5 would be enough to destroy most av10 but maybe more for survivability and the oportunity to kill things in cc if needed what do you guys think.) two vypers. (WOW I used all my Fast attack who woulda guessed!) two squads of 5 pathfinders and eldrad. I then have the choice of bringing in allies or bulking up the eldar. I'm sure the council still scares people and its just as survivable as before so I could continue using that however Hendarion warned against that. Whats your reasoning im kinda interested.
Aliarzathanil what do you put in the serpents? I cant think of anything I would really want to put in besides full DA squads but I feel there is a lot of negative vibes about them right now. I could put in my Storm guardian squad with 2 flamers and a destructor... that could work i guess...

[Dwane Diblie]

If you are running Harlequins then and you do not have enough cover for them to get to assault then you are gong to need a good cheap screaning unit so they can take full advantage of their Shadowseers abilitys. Fortune on them also works wonders. If you can also Doom and Misfortune their target assaunt then nothing will live long against that.

If you are going to be using the standard missions as layed out in the rule book then make sure you have some Heavy Support and some Fast Attack units for aditional scoring in some missions.

Screen your skilmmers from assault or they will be droped out of the sky by the first unit that makes combat with it. While Vipers (and War Walkers) have only 2 Hull Points it is generaly easier to get them cover and this will keep them around alittle longer but they WILL die unless you can force your opponent to shoot your scoring units or contesting units instead of the vehicles.

I have had some decent luck with my 10 man Dire Avengr units so far so I would not right them off, but Rangers and Path Finders are extreamply good. Personaly I would go Rangers as I do not think the diferance in the save or the extra power from the shooting is worth the points diferance. You can often find other ways to get extra bonuses to their cover with in the game itself. Shame our camo cloaks did not get the same treatment as Space Marines got. And as for the shooting all that extra AP is cool but I find it not needed.

Not sure how a Wraithlord will go but I have been enjoying using my Avatar so I think it will do better and survive longer. Only downside to a WL is that if they do not bring their Krak Grenades, a Powerfist or a Power Axe then you are not going to beable to hold them up in combat unless they actualy want to stay there.

Finaly with reguards to your wytches. Do not charge them un to large units or units with high rates of fire (ie Ork Lootas) as not enough of them will survive the Overwatch. I saw an unlucky person today loose his entire 10 wytch squad to 10 Tactical Marines due to some insaly good Overwatch firing and no cover for the wytches to even atempt saves. But that was a rearity.

I hope that helps in someway.

[bountylord]

so here is a possible 1850 list.
Eldrad
2x 5 pathfinders
10 harly's with tools
3 falcons w/ eml (no spirit stones)
8 spiders also with upgrades
2 vypers w/ dual SC
haemy w/ liquifier
7 wyches with agoniser and haywire
raider
voidraven w/ 2x missiles

comes to 7 points under 1850. I feel like there isnt any planned synergy in the list. I just take a few things that i think may work well in 6e and put them together. But what do I know it may work. What do you guys think I should change or add. I have a **** load of other models if I want to bring them instead including 6 other serpents and the seer council on bikes if I want that. Ive never taken my full council to a tourny and it would be fun to see how they fair in a competative setting.

[Aliarzathanil]

If you don't intend to use them a transports, the Falcons should probably be swapped for Prisms as they are cheaper and better vs infantry while still being decent against tanks.
Taking harlequins and wyches means you loose a lot of shooting ability; I'm not saying it won't work, but you might be forced into being the aggressor.

[bountylord]

Hummn, origionally I was going to take the prisms but I was told they wouldnt be as effective as the falcon. However I feel like now that all the blast effects vehicles with full strenght that they may be more usable. I dunno what I would necissarily put in the falcons though Origionally I would have had 5 man DA squads. I could still put in 5 Fire dragons as they are pretty cheap and great at what they do. I would need to switch some points around but I dont really need to have a 8 man spider squad. I could drop it down a lil and maybe drop the voidravens missiles as it will probably be used for anti air anyways. Similarily I could drop the wyches down and use them only for haywire despensors but again thats pretty expensive for its sole purpose being to drop off haywire grenades.

What I want to stay is the pathfinders and the harlequins as I feel they synergize pretty well. The enemy will have to get near me or shoot the hell out of me if he wants to get rid of the pathfinders similarily the harlequins will be there to pop a few melta shots into the transport and hopefully assualt the passengers inside. All 3 squads have a 2+ coversave and with eldrad I could even make them reroll those if I wanted (although I think that would be overkill) Either eldrad or the jetcouncil will be in the list I see pros and cons for both. People are scared of them and will put shots into them that could otherwise go other places to better effect but they try as hard as they can to take it out. On a side not Ive never lost my whole council before in a game Ive take hundreds and hundreds of bolter shot and still help up to flame the living daylight out of the enemy. It really is a great squad and I would like to include it if possible points allowing.

I wish that I could drop the wyches and raider but if I want any air support at all they are my best bet. Ive though about running 5 kabalite warriors for 45 pts to cut back but they really wouldnt have a purpose. All the same what do you guys think about that.

Finally I was thinking how funny it would be to bring vect for his stealing the iniative on a 4+ and then putting him with eldrads squad for a 2+ rerollable invuln. seems pretty scary to me but then again i dont have a model that could work for vect so that probably wouldnt work unless I could proxy yriel as him.

I read through the rules yesterday (found a pdf of them) but wont have my own until saturday. So I think I got a better basis for my ideas now but again no game experience so anyone else who has played a game what worked for you and what didnt work? Any hidden treasures you found that didnt seem usable in 5th?

[lantzkev]

pretty sure the disembark can't happen period if you move more than 6inches regardless of assault or not. All assault does is allow you to assault after disembarking from a vehicle.

[Aliarzathanil]

That is correct. Valks and Stormravens are the exception.

[bountylord]

wait what about assualting? where did I talk about that?

[bountylord]

ok this is what im thinking to run


HQ: 760 pts
Farseer 133 pts
-Fortune
-Spear
-Bike
-Runes of Warding
Autarch 130 pts
-Laser lance
-Mandiblasters
-Bike

(9) Warlocks 497 pts
-6 destructors
-1 enhance
-1 embolden
-4 spears
-9 Bikes

Troops:
(5) Pathfinders 120 pts

(5) Pathfinders 120 pts
(3) Jetbikes 76 pts
Elites:
(10) Harlequins 266 pts
-4 Kisses
-2 Fusion Pistols
-Troupe Master
-Shadowseer

Fast Attack:
(8) Warp Spiders 213 pts
-Exarch
-2x Spinners
-Powerblades
-Surprise Assualt

(1) Vyper 60 pts
-Dual SC

(1) Vyper 60 pts
-Dual SC
Heavies:
(3) warwalkers 180 pts
-6x SL


Its very unconventional but if I take turn two I place the council, the walkers and the spiders in reserve to come in round two (I can do this as the spiders have surprise assualt which means that they can deep strike even if the 50% rule would allow it. If I take turn one I place the jetcouncil and pathfinders and vypers with the bikes, walkers and spiders coming in from outflanking, reserve and deepstrike. I know its not very competative as everything cost way more than it should but I have speed to play, resilience, as well as surprise that may just be enough to deal with most armies. No one can deal with that council without tarpitting large numbers of their power armour into them.