Revealing magic items

[Asensur]

Text

Just checked again, and I understand your argument.

Anyway, has anyone posted this?

Q: Do I have to show my opponent my army roster at the start of a
battle, or can I wait until the end of the game, which means I only
need to reveal things like which magic items my characters have
taken when I first use them? (p132)
A: If you think this may be an issue, discuss it with your
opponent before the game starts. Some players prefer full
disclosure at the start of the battle, while others prefer to wait
until the battle has finished before revealing their roster. It is
for you and your opponent to decide which method you prefer
to use.

Magic items are revealed when they are used first (yes, even a partial use is a use, f.e. the roll of the Fellblade reveals the Fellblade even being partially used)

[hazmiter]

Declaration of an item is compulsory in the case of the banner of eternal flame, even more so, because in example.
Skaven bsb has banner eternal flame, he fights a high elf w armour of caledor.... Doesn't declare banner, wins combat, then declares it on summoned hydra.... This is bad form, and also very very not nice, said player won't get a game again....

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Does that make sense?

Yes, of course it does, it makes a lot of sense, and it is a good way to play it. It's however not how my gaming group plays. I just thought someone would perhaps unearth some hidden statement from the rules.

Just checked the rulebook and find something.

I'm not sure it is so clear-cut from a purely rules-point of view. Last game, my opponent rolled for his Fellblade without me knowing or realizing and suffered two wounds. He was honest about it, and had I remembered its effects I might have asked him to roll openly. I even think he should have done that but I can only argue on the grounds of game effect, not rules.

Declaration of an item is compulsory in the case of the banner of eternal flame

hazmiter, the question we are trying to answer is when it has to be revealed. Your example implicitly relays to this question but this introducing statement as such is wrong.

In your example, the banner could have an effect, so I agree that in order to find out, one must reveal it. If the BSB had attacked a unit of Spearelves without a character outside of a building instead, what would be the point of revealing it? Perhaps the bearer did not set it aflame yet? Perhaps he carried it in a magical magic-flame-subduing-scabbard (Loec's/Ulric's/Khorne's Extinguisher?)?

At the end of the day, I would rephrase the original answer ("An item must be revealed as soon as it is used/has an effect") to "as soon as it could possibly/potentially have and effect." I think this is a good compromise between the wish to surprise an opponent and the need for transparency.

[kefkah]

In the spirit of the game,declare when a item is used, no nasty stuff.

And i speak from exp. Had reg on strigoi, but the item wich gives +2 ward save against flamings, so when i got sniped by his maneaters with poision attacks i backed off a little to shield him. When he gets in a natural 6 on turn 3 after 2 rounds of sniping then he declares he has flaming banner. LOL, if i had know it on round 1 when i got the first hits i wouldent run back and try to shield my general.

So yeah, say when you use the banner/weapon,the first time its used.

[Senor]

Is it not the sport (or even rule) aswell to have these mentioned on the army list of the army you have on the table (or still beside the table, awaiting deployment in the 2nd or later turn)

Assasin hero is mentioned, Banner is mentioned, Magic item to have extra attack on every unsaved wound is mentioned. I always ask for their army list up-front and know what to look for.

[hazmiter]

Assassin is a hidden hero who pops out of a pre determined unit, thus, can't reveal on main list... Otherwise you can just avoid or shoot that unit.

[Ratarsed]

Personally I don't think it is necessary to keep magic items a secret past deployment, but you don't want to go openly decaring them all either. In the case of the BoEF the magic item should be revealed as soon as the unit makes an attack. (I think it would noticed by all if their swords or arrows suddenly burst into flame!) Basicaly declare the item as soon as it might even remotley be of importance. The fellblade for example should be declared as soon as you roll dice to determine if it inflicts a wound on the wielder. Be fair and you should not go wrong.

[N1AK]

Those aren't really satisfying definitions.

How does something come into play that doesn't do anything? My BotEF does not affect many enemies; I'm not doing anything with it that affects simple troopers by fighting them, they do not activate it.

Reveal items when they come into play...how do I know it comes into play? Same goes for "reveal if they could potentially affect". I would have to know that a character in that unit has the Dragonbane thingy beforehand, I don't know that my banner comes into play beforehand. So...At what point in time does the banner come into play? Do characters that get charged by units that could potentially have a magic banner have to declare their equipment first, as it could potentially affect the charger?

The banner grants flaming attacks. When you attack you declare it because it has 'done something'; it has affected the units attacked (it just doesn't make them any better). The same with magic weapons. My biting blade may not help against a troll but I am using it, thus "My Hero makes 4 attacks, WS6 S5 with the biting blade". You need to declare when going through lists armour types that come from magic items as these should be wysiwyg, although I admit this is more for clarity than rationality, surely someone in plate armour could be wearing a 'helm' without it being the Dragonhelm for example. The benefit of the armour is declared when it could be used. Glittering scales (-1 to hit) would be declared when the first attacks are rolled against him, armour that increases toughness when the first rolls to wound are made, armour that alters save when first save is rolled etc.

Truthfully there isn't a RAW way to handle declaring magic items. The issue with trying to play right on the line of only declaring items when they change things is that in order to ensure that nothing is missed, without declaring items, you'd have to go through checklists constantly "So does anything in this combat require that I declare anything causing flaming attacks? magical attacks? magic items? etc". Also due to the ambiguity left by the rules different groups play by different standards and standardising on one that ensures you declare everything you should is better than risking not declaring something they are entitled to know.

In short, if by not declaring a magic item when used the result of the game is changed then it is cheating. If someone can with 100% reliability only declare certain items when they don't change the game then they are within the bounds of RAW. That still wouldn't alter that flaming attacks need to be announced (because the attack itself has been changed).

[N1AK]

In the spirit of the game,declare when a item is used, no nasty stuff.

And i speak from exp. Had reg on strigoi, but the item wich gives +2 ward save against flamings, so when i got sniped by his maneaters with poision attacks i backed off a little to shield him. When he gets in a natural 6 on turn 3 after 2 rounds of sniping then he declares he has flaming banner. LOL, if i had know it on round 1 when i got the first hits i wouldent run back and try to shield my general.

This is exactly the issue with people trying to work out whether they need to declare abilities/items etc when using them. He may not have intended to and he may not have known he was but the moment he made flaming attacks without declaring they were flaming he cheated. The result of the game isn't valid, which in a tournament would mean it would have to be granted as a massacre to his opponent.

[N1AK]

I'm not sure it is so clear-cut from a purely rules-point of view. Last game, my opponent rolled for his Fellblade without me knowing or realizing and suffered two wounds. He was honest about it, and had I remembered its effects I might have asked him to roll openly. I even think he should have done that but I can only argue on the grounds of game effect, not rules.

I think it is a fundamental premise of wargaming that all dice rolls be open (obviously if people agree to play it differently then I don't care). If you didn't see the rolls then you don't 'know' the rolls happened or what the results were, so I'm 100% certain what he did was only 'ok by the rules' if it would also be ok for me to roll all my dice rolls in secret and tell you the results. Secondly, in this particular case he was concealing that a model had taken wounds something which again I don't think is any more ok than my refusing to mark wounds, saying I am tracking them on my list and refusing to tell you how many wounds a model has taken/remaining in total (especially with VC and my Lore ability).

[Asensur]

This is exactly the issue with people trying to work out whether they need to declare abilities/items etc when using them. He may not have intended to and he may not have known he was but the moment he made flaming attacks without declaring they were flaming he cheated. The result of the game isn't valid, which in a tournament would mean it would have to be granted as a massacre to his opponent.

In our tournaments there is the rule that if a player forgot to reveal a magic item when he had to, that item count as destroyed for that match. Same as Fanatics, hidden characters, etc.

The partial or complete use of a text from a magic item reveals that item.

Also, the use of special rules granted by the item, or characteristic test that have a modificator from the item, also reveal that item.

Magic weapons are revealed when you attack. Magic Armours are revealed when attacked.