Impact of gunpowder on the War of Vengeance?

[woodster17]

All that is true and well, the fact is, the Dwarfs killed the HE king. You're treating it like they killed a mere elf, but he was not. Of course a king's not a mere elf obviously, but that's not all. He's not a mere king either, he's not the king of a nation, he's the king of an entire race, the one ruler of all the high elves. He is also supposed to be chosen by Asuryan. So the dwarfs killed the figurehead of a whole race, as well as the figurehead of their leading deity. Her... what I was arguing about again? "reads previous posts again". Ah yeah: I only disagree that the dwarfs cut the war short, when they got Caledor. They hit the jackpot, they beheaded their enemy. I don't disagree (or agree for that matter, I just gave no thoughts to it) about anything else.

I would agree with this sentiment generally- however the Elves were too aggrieved as it's well know Caledor II was a bit of a jackass; an arrogant king who threw away an ally by shaving the ambassador and starting the war in the first place. The HE were far more bothered about the crown. As I've said above, Grudgelore states that the killing of the king and the taking of the crown was sufficient for King Starbreaker to call and end to the war- he saw that as recompense for the HE crimes and a sufficient prize to count the grudge ended.

Originally, you are correct, the Dwarfs would presumably have accepted a truthful apology or a like for like shaving but there was escalation from the beginning. Firstly, the Dark Elves attacked a Dwarven caravan, killing many Dwarfs. The Starbreaker sent a message to Lothern demanding an apology and recompense. Caledor II refused and so Starbreaker sent an envoy in the form of an ambassador to Lothern but the argument got out of hand the the envoy brandished an axe. Subsequently, instead of killing him, as was right under Elven law, Caledor sent him back shaved and the war began. The head of the King and Phoenix Crown may not have been suitable recompense for a shaved beard, but it was for 400 years of slaughter.

[BobtheInquisitor]

They got a king's head for a beard I'm sorry, TheDungen, but while you usually argue things based on facts (which is why I usually find your posts interesting), in that particular case, you don't, there's no ground to support your opinion. The Elf King insulted the Dwarf King, the Dwarf king sent an ambassador (that's an impressive thing for a dwarf, trying this much), the ambassador got shaved, the result is 4 centuries of war and Caledor slain. For an insult and a shaven beard. A dwarf would have certainly settled for shaving Caledor's hair, if you ask me.

I think castration would have been the logical, more appropriate and evenly-measured response. Elves like long hair, but shaving it off won't make the elf a pariah freak unable to know the touch of a woman (or man). Sahving a dwarf's beard has exactly that effect.

I suppose "to the pain" would also be appropriate.

[Displaced]

Lol inconceivable!

[grumbaki]

I think castration would have been the logical, more appropriate and evenly-measured response. Elves like long hair, but shaving it off won't make the elf a pariah freak unable to know the touch of a woman (or man). Sahving a dwarf's beard has exactly that effect.

I suppose "to the pain" would also be appropriate.

Country A is a christian nation. Country B is atheist. An ambassador from Country A goes to Country B with a cross necklace. The king of Country B destroys the cross in front of the ambassador and kicks him out, as an insult. Do you think that it would be fair recompense for the king of country B to lose his necklace too?

It isn't the necklace being destroyed that was at issue. It wasn't the cutting of hair that was at issue. It was the insult, and the cultural taboo that was intentionally broken. If anything, taking the phoenix crown was just recompense. Shaving the ambassador to the king is the same as shaving the king. It is stealing his honor, and to do that is to insult the entire dwarven race. So by taking the phoenix crown, the dwarfs inflicted the same kind of shame and dishonor onto the elves as was given to them. Killing the phoenix king was just icing on the cake, and a great way to end a war with an exclamation point.

[TheDungen]

The charcians view their hair much as the dwarves view their beard but Caledor was well from Caledor.

Also i'll never get who asuryan could grant his blessing to Caledor II. Nearly makes me belive the dark elves in that the would be kings simple protect themselves from the power of the flame using spells and talismans. Except the book Caledor says that Caledor is disintegrated and reassembled.

[grumbaki]

The charcians view their hair much as the dwarves view their beard but Caledor was well from Caledor.

Also i'll never get who asuryan could grant his blessing to Caledor II. Nearly makes me belive the dark elves in that the would be kings simple protect themselves from the power of the flame using spells and talismans. Except the book Caledor says that Caledor is disintegrated and reassembled.

Could you please post a source on the importance of chracians' hair? I haven't heard anything about that before now. Nor have I heard of how a chracian will go off and kill himself because his hair got cut.

[Skopey]

Yeah I'm not saying Elves dont have that view now. But after 400 (though probably would last no where near as long) years of no doubt bearing the brunt of black powder weapons, as im sure they would bear the brunt of them. Even with magic backing them up. Surely There would be a call for their use, maybe not the way dwarves and men use it now, but some other technomagi way of using it to benefit their war effort. Granted i know you can apply the same logic now for say Brets not using them now for example. But im seeing a massive elf defeat if dwarves had had the option of using the stuff then. The dwarf empire was a much bigger player at that time and if they had handguns and cannon im sure the elves would have conceded much faster than they had. Unless as disgusting as it seems they employed the technology for themselves. Plus like i queried before, dark elves use crossbows now (not because of dwarves maybe) but surely the powder weapons would have drawn a few envious eyes from them as they see the dwarves cut down swathes of their elf cousins with volleys of gunfire and we would be seeing Dark elves with cannon and hand guns now. Repeating handguns

[TheDungen]

I need sources? Cant i just make it up as i go? =P

Well ok it was a bit hyperbole, they're not quite as fond of their hair as dwarves are of their beard but is similar, chracians dotn cut their hair, long hair is a sign of status and to avoid having it cut of in battle they braid it. (which in fact is a viking practice)
Now Where did i read that? i'll be back after some digging.

Does anyone else remember this i cant seem to find i i've checked 5th edition army book 7th edition army book, the 7th edition high elf white dwarf relase issue for 4th 5th 6th and 7th and the elven collectors guide thus far.

[Dargon]

They got a king's head for a beard I'm sorry, TheDungen, but while you usually argue things based on facts (which is why I usually find your posts interesting), in that particular case, you don't, there's no ground to support your opinion. The Elf King insulted the Dwarf King, the Dwarf king sent an ambassador (that's an impressive thing for a dwarf, trying this much), the ambassador got shaved, the result is 4 centuries of war and Caledor slain. For an insult and a shaven beard. A dwarf would have certainly settled for shaving Caledor's hair, if you ask me. They paid themselves back a tenfold. In all honestly, what more could have they done? Pursued the elves on Ulthuan, killing them to the last and claiming Ulthuan for their own? Dwarfs have a bit more honor than that, I'd like to believe.

The thing is, the Dwarf Ambassador was so humiliated that he was forced to take up the Slayer Oath. Sure to the Elves, the beard shaving was considered nothing more than a hazing, but to the Dwarfs, the beard shaving was a fatal blow upon the Ambassador designed to kill him as slowly and painfully as possible. Others are right, castration is probably the only equivalent that would scar and humiliate an Elf to the same extent, no matter how much they might prize their long flowing locks.

[Craze_b0i]

Shaving the beard was the final insult, but the war would have happened anyway because Caledor was too arogant to address the dwarf complaints.

[grumbaki]

Not too sure about that. Even if he refused recompense, I'm sure that King Starbreaker could have gotten recompense in some other form. I could see him seizing elven goods to pay off the debt...which could have lead to an escalation towards war, but cooler heads could have prevailed. This would especially be true if an elven diplomat could have convinced the dwarfs that the raids were not sanctioned. Heck, if the elves dumped a few dozen dark elf heads at the feet of King Starbreaker and told him that the "bandits" had been dealt with, war would have been avoided.

The shaving was just a bridge too far.

[The bearded one]

Not too sure about that. Even if he refused recompense, I'm sure that King Starbreaker could have gotten recompense in some other form. I could see him seizing elven goods to pay off the debt...which could have lead to an escalation towards war, but cooler heads could have prevailed. This would especially be true if an elven diplomat could have convinced the dwarfs that the raids were not sanctioned. Heck, if the elves dumped a few dozen dark elf heads at the feet of King Starbreaker and told him that the "bandits" had been dealt with, war would have been avoided.

The shaving was just a bridge too far.

Here the order of events. The war and events leading up to it have been detailed in numerous different books and armybooks, so some events are not recounted in some, but they are in others. Here I have constructed a logical order to include as much of the events as possible.

1: Dark elves attack dwarf caravans, and generally stir up trouble in the old world
2: Gotrek starbreaker corresponds with Caledor II, demanding compensation
3: Caledor II replies he does not answer to demands, but that he grants pleas
4: infuriated at the suggestion he should beg for it, Gotrek demands double the compensation
5: The dwarf ambassador draws his weapon in front of the phoenix king. He is shaven and expelled from Ulthuan, after which he becomes a slayer
6: Gotrek Starbreaker swears he will have compensation or it's weregeld in elven blood, or he will shave his head. The dwarfs are determined not to let their king suffer such a fate.
7: The dwarf realm prepares for 3 years, before assaulting the elven colonies. The war begins in earnest.
8: Caledor II sends a mighty expedition, which leaves Ulthuan dangerously weakened, to reinforce the colonies. Reinforcements will continue being sent for the remainder of the war.

[Craze_b0i]

Not too sure about that. Even if he refused recompense, I'm sure that King Starbreaker could have gotten recompense in some other form. I could see him seizing elven goods to pay off the debt...which could have lead to an escalation towards war, but cooler heads could have prevailed. This would especially be true if an elven diplomat could have convinced the dwarfs that the raids were not sanctioned.

Hard too see cooler heads prevailing when Caledor II was around. Indeed if the dwarfs took the law to their own hands it would only make other proud elves agree with Caledor.

Heck, if the elves dumped a few dozen dark elf heads at the feet of King Starbreaker and told him that the "bandits" had been dealt with, war would have been avoided.

Again hard to see this, because for one thing the elves did not even accept responsibility. Caledor made no effort of investigating the matter, whether it was his own followers or a false claim, he was only concerned with the affront to his dignity.

Also at the time no-one made the dark elf connection, they did not know the dark elves were operating in the old world and both sides seemed to forget the Malekith knew the secret trade routes from his days as ambassador.

[TheDungen]

Well i don't think they were dark elves per see but members of the cult of pleasure (Still under orders from Malekieth). And as someone said that they were still present in Ulthuan didnt become apparent until much later.

Also they could not settle for taking elven goods because:

1. The elves had killed dwarfs too, that grudge needed to be settled.

2. Theft is almost as bad as murder in dwarven society, if its gold I'd dare say its worse.

3. Since theft is so horrible to a dwarf, stealing back from a thief is out of the question.

[stormblade]

It's not stealing if it's from a thief.

[TheDungen]

While dwarfs may agree that you have the right to take back their property you don't steal it back, you settle the grudge (theft is nearly as bad as murder) and then take what's yours back once its settled. Its not a subtle notion, but if you did it that way in dwarven society and it wa sappearent that the other dwarf had stolen from you not evemn his closest kin would be able to hold a grudge against your for that. If it was gold my gues swould eb that one of them would have to take the slayer oath.

[Drasanil]

Heck, if the elves dumped a few dozen dark elf heads at the feet of King Starbreaker and told him that the "bandits" had been dealt with, war would have been avoided.

Hell the local prince could have cut off the heads a few dozen peasants/undesirables/political enemies and passed them off as the 'bandits' before the matter even made it to Caledor, no need to go out your way involving dark elves or anything.

Then again the war of the beard set up was kind of a bit much some bandit raids lead to highest levels of governemtn getting involved right away... yet notice how we never hear about Thorgrim threatening to blow up the empire over human bandit raids? And lets not pretend no one would ever dare to attack dwarven trade carvans and/or merchants.

[DieTodtenReitenSchnell]

Coming from a military history standpoint, the implementation of gunpowder weapons on a large scale sees proportional growth in the size of the army using it, as well as a greater emphasis on small-unit tactics. That being said, the training required to operate a firearm is considerably less than the training required to become a skilled melee fighter. Not that GW ever pays much attention to real world military theory - but since we're just throwing around wild ideas...

[Vandur Last]

Funny how this very simple question has created such a lengthy debate.

Basically the Dwarfs won the war through military might. If they had access to more advanced weapons they would have won faster and more easily.
Any other outcome or hypothesis basically amounts to a fan-fiction rewrite.

[Skopey]

Nah Thorgrim just added a new page in the book of grudges that will one day be crossed out. He's got a ****ton of other more serious grudges to right before those ones. Plus the Empire will probably put the said bandits to the sword for the sake of good relations with the dwarves. Unlike the HE preceding the war of the beard.