Impact of gunpowder on the War of Vengeance?

[The bearded one]

I just want to adress something repeatedly mentioned in this thread; the high cost/pyrrhic victory for the dwarfs. Had the mountains not erupted in massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, killing thousands and enormously damaging the dwarf holds and defences and leading to the time of woes and goblin wars, it'd have been a fine victory for the dwarfs. The war was costly in that they'd probably have had to give up on some territory on the plains (present day empire) to the humans, at least for a while anyway, but had the mountains not been shattered by the slann/skaven machine, the dwarfs had returned to their holds and eventually recovered, and life would've gone on. Even when embroiled in a massive war against the other most powerful nation on the warhammer world, the greenskins and skaven were virtually no real issue despite being occupied for 400 years of war. Then the war ends, couple years of steady recovery (60 or so), > wham < earthquakes, apocalypse ensues, greenskins and skaven invade and capture several dwarf holds. I think that without the war of vengeance this cataclysmic disaster would still have screwed over the dwarfs. Portions of holds were filled with lava, for heavens sake!

Gunpowder would not have changed the outcome of the war, merely turned the balance slightly further towards the dwarfs. It sure would not suddenly turn into an easy victory though.

It was a german general during ww2 on the eastern front who said that if killing more of your opponent won you the war than we'd have won already. Horrible paraphrasing but i think the point can be seen.

and if I recall correctly, eventually the soldiery and proletarians revolted and exited the war.

Basically think of the inclusion of gunpowder into the war of vengeance like this: imagine the war, with all its battles. Now increase elven casualties of each battle by 10-15%'ish, slightly decreasing dwarf casualties. Killing the enemy alone doesn't win you the battle/war. Any war with skaven or goblins should prove that. However more easily killing the foe allows you to lose less soldiers yourself and gain slight advantage in the following battle, and the next and the next and the next, and if the high elf casualties had consistently been a bit higher due to gunpowder, and the dwarf casualties lower due to the killing of opponents that would've killed a dwarf had they been alive, dwarfs can simply steadily gain an advantage in every battle and every following battle, making the entire war on the whole more tilted towards the dwarfs as every single battle is slightly easier to win. Killing the enemy, or winning battles alone doesn't win you the war, but I doubt that the elves losing more battles in a war that they eventually lost anyway is going to do them any favours, especially when artillery and handguns heavily counter 2 of their greatest assets; knights and dragons.

And whos to say that such an intervention as black powder wouldn't have begun an arms race to get the a-bomb?? The HE may have been forced to do the reckless again and draw the sword of khaine again...

If it would be such an easy carefree solution to problems, I think they would do it more frequently Certainly after fighting a war for 400 years.

[TheDungen]

If it would be such an easy carefree solution to problems, I think they would do it more frequently Certainly after fighting a war for 400 years.

You underestimate the pride of Caledor, of course it was the same pride that led to him not drawing it, he though he didn't need it. But if he had lived he would've drawn it rather than admitting defeat. The sword of khaine is also an artefact linked to Aenarion, Caledor would despise it as his great grandfather had opposed to drawign it in the first place, but Tethlis tried to draw it and he was also a prince of Caledor.


Also As far as i know only two cities are ever sacked by the dwarfs, Athel Maraya (which actually catches fire and kills both sides fighting over it) and tor Alessi. Thats far from a significant loss for the elves, its been stated that Elthin Avar is the least of Ulthuans colonies aswell. ("The dwarfs had judged the strength of Ulthuan by the least of its colonies").

Have you considered that Starbreaker really didn't want the war and wanted it over as soon a possible. Claiming it was Caledor that had insulted them rather than the elven nation was the quick way to strike the grudge out of the book of grudges. And yes the dwarfs are stubborn but they aren't stupid, you don't live as long as the dwarfs without becoming quite wise at the end.
And both sides retreated from the plains of the empire and brettonia. he dwarfs had no reason the keep the war going, they had settled the grudge, and the elves was fighting a war on two fronts.
Oh i'm pretty sure the dwarfs say they win but i think a fair few of them know deep down that the war was unnecessary.
I'm not saying that the orcs and skaven appeared out of nowhere just after the war but i'm saying the replenished much faster than the dwarfs did. As for some disaster i've never heard of it, but the latest dwarf book i read is their 6th edition army book. And dont discount the losses int he war, many things were lost forever in that war. The elves lost alot to but compared to what they lost in the sundering and the civil war its barely worth mentioning. What happened in Cotique probably had much greater losses in elven lives than the war of the beard ever had.

[The bearded one]

Also As far as i know only two cities are ever sacked by the dwarfs, Athel Maraya (which actually catches fire and kills both sides fighting over it) and tor Alessi. Thats far from a significant loss for the elves, its been stated that Elthin Avar is the least of Ulthuans colonies aswell. ("The dwarfs had judged the strength of Ulthuan by the least of its colonies").

And 0 dwarf holds. Another elven city in the old world is the fortress of Sith Rionnasc'namishathir, at the mouth of the river Reik.
"The dwarfs had judged the strength of Ulthuan by the least of its provinces", actually, referring to Ulthuan's provinces. In other words; the were stronger and more numerous than expected, but that just makes for a better fight.

Have you considered that Starbreaker really didn't want the war and wanted it over as soon a possible. Claiming it was Caledor that had insulted them rather than the elven nation was the quick way to strike the grudge out of the book of grudges. And yes the dwarfs are stubborn but they aren't stupid, you don't live as long as the dwarfs without becoming quite wise at the end.

he shaved a dwarf ambassador and later on killed Starbreakers' son, Snorri halfhand. You don't get away with either when fighting dwarfs. Actually you don't get away with anything when fighting dwarfs. It's a cultural thing; they have no word for foregiveness in their language, but many subtle variations on retribution. It's in the dwarfs psyche to deal out some payback. Caledor II and the elves insult the entire dwarf race, so the dwarfs want Caledor II dead or their weregeld in elven blood. It was Caledor IIs fault in the first place (even in their correspondence leading up to the shaving and the war, Caledor II insulted Starbreaker by saying Starbreaker should beg for compensation (for the attacked merchantcaravans), rather than demand).

When Caledor II is finally killed, the grudge is settled and there's no need to fight anymore as far as the dwarfs are concerned.

And both sides retreated from the plains of the empire and brettonia. he dwarfs had no reason the keep the war going, they had settled the grudge, and the elves was fighting a war on two fronts.
Oh i'm pretty sure the dwarfs say they win but i think a fair few of them know deep down that the war was unnecessary.

The war was unnecessary, quite obviously, as it was an ultimate culture-clash with a bit of instigation from a third party, whereas they could have been allies in the most powerful alliance on the planet. However it remains that the war was fought all over the old world, but ended with the siege and destruction of the elven strongholds, including their regional capital, Tor Alessi, and the death of their king.

I'm not saying that the orcs and skaven appeared out of nowhere just after the war but i'm saying the replenished much faster than the dwarfs did. As for some disaster i've never heard of it, but the latest dwarf book i read is their 6th edition army book.

Well, it's actually repeatedly mentioned in a large number of armybooks, including the skaven and lizardmen. It's a pretty diggitydarn giganticly catastrophic event, actually, and ruined the potential for recovery, significantly worsening the state of the dwarf realms as well. It may be one of the most significant turning-points in dwarf history. Here is the entry of the dwarf armybook timeline on it, and on the fall of Karak Varn directly after it.

"-1500 After the war of vengeance, the dwarf empire enjoys only a few years of peace before the worlds edge mountains are riven by earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. The dwarfs refer to this disaster and the ensuing period of anarchy as the time of woes. The records of many strongholds are lost or disrupted for a time, and even the great book of grudges in Karaz-aKarak falls strangely silent. From what records remain, it is clear that many dwarfs were slain and countless mines and small settlements destroyed. Even the larger holds were badly damaged as great rents opened in the earth and while levels were swamped with molten lava. The underway is partially ruined and blocked in many places, cutting the strongholds off from one another. The following period is known as the time of the goblin wars, although if truth be known the dwarfs' foes included Orcs, Ogres, Trolls, Skaven and all manner of evil creatures. The first hold to fall is Karak Ungor in the imperial year -1500. This hold is taken over by Night goblins and known thereafter as Red Eye Mountain.

-1499 Karak Varn, already flooded when earthquakes split the rock apart allowing water into the lower workings, is destroyed by skaven and night goblins."

See page 12 of the dwarf armybook for more info. These natural disasters rent the dwarf holdings apart across the length and breadth of the dwarf empire.

And dont discount the losses int he war, many things were lost forever in that war. The elves lost alot to but compared to what they lost in the sundering and the civil war its barely worth mentioning. What happened in Cotique probably had much greater losses in elven lives than the war of the beard ever had.

Much was lost in the war, on both sides, but had the dwarf realm not been rent by earthquakes and lava, followed by endless war and invasion, the dwarfs would have eventually recovered. As it stands now, they fought the other most powerful nation on the planet for 400 years straight, a war for which the entire dwarf realm prepared for 3 years first, and for which Caledor II used so many troops from Ulthuan, that he stripped down all the garrisons to their bare minimum across a continent for over 400 years, sending in numerous ships packed with reinforcements all the while. I find the existing notion that the war of vengeance was a bit of a border-skirmish'ey thing with an occasional large battle, to be a ridiculous one, demeaning to both races.








I'm passionate about the subject.

[ManOfRust]

Sorry as this doesn't relate to gunpowder at all but whilst I understand that the Time of Woes would have been a disasterous time even if the War of the Beard could have been avoided, possibly more Dwarfs would have survived the carnage if they had powerful allies on the continent to shelter refugees fleeing lava flows and friendly armies to relieve fortresses suddenly surrounded by greenies and vermin.

And, I hesitate to suggest, might not the magically potent Elves have maybe helped protect the World Edge Mountains from magical backlash? Or even foresee the Skaven archane-mechanical tinkering/Slaan do-whaterry? By squabbling with their only ally did the Dwarfs maybe remove their only tools to avoid catastrophe?

Slightly on-topic; unless the Dwarfs had quite advanced black-powder tech the Elves could simply have magically brought down rain and eliminated the blackpowder advantage. Most battlefield technology being somewhat situational the effects on the duration of the War can only be uncertain.

[The bearded one]

Slightly on-topic; unless the Dwarfs had quite advanced black-powder tech the Elves could simply have magically brought down rain and eliminated the blackpowder advantage. Most battlefield technology being somewhat situational the effects on the duration of the War can only be uncertain.

It's not like dwarfs are without anti-magic, what with their mastery of runecraft being at their hightest at that point, and a full understanding of the anvils of doom.

[TheDungen]

I really dont think the dwarfs would've turned to anyone for help even if the alliance had still been strong. Its simply not who they are, dwarfs rather face extinction than go begging. Sure they're capable if doing a pragmatic solution at times, but only if they can save face somehow. Like the end of the war, 400 years of war and the death of the kings son really don't get settled by the death of one elf. But Starbreaker knew that continuing the war at that point would be catastrophic and settled for it. As i said earlier dwarfs are prideful and stubborn but the aren't stupid.

[woodster17]

I really dont think the dwarfs would've turned to anyone for help even if the alliance had still been strong. Its simply not who they are, dwarfs rather face extinction than go begging. Sure they're capable if doing a pragmatic solution at times, but only if they can save face somehow. Like the end of the war, 400 years of war and the death of the kings son really don't get settled by the death of one elf. But Starbreaker knew that continuing the war at that point would be catastrophic and settled for it. As i said earlier dwarfs are prideful and stubborn but the aren't stupid.

But it does- you might need to read up more on Dwarven culture. If Caledor hadn't have died, the war would have continued. Starbreaker would never have backed down. Dwarf grudges are complex things; when the Dwarf race is wronged they owe the enemy a debt of retribution and vengeance- when that's settled the matter is concluded. Killing the Elven king and taking the crown settled the debt to an extent. Stupidity doesn't come in to it.

[Craze_b0i]

In reply to the OP yes gunpowder would have made a difference. How much is hard to fathom since warhammer is a paradoxical world where vast differences in technology can exist without affecting the balance. Having said that... Medieval style castles have no defence against cannon, hence elf cities or castles that took dwarfs months or years to besiege could have fallen in days. In real-life cannon also made a difference out on the battlefield, though in the warhammer-gaming they are seemingly not much better than a stone thrower and even if there is a fluff-difference then it is not big enough to stop dwarfs using stone throwers alongside cannon.

Regarding the War of Vengeance itself. Neither side won. The dwarfs achieved a strategic objective by killing Caledor and taking the Crown, but the war itself was stalemate. At that point the dwarfs withdrew strategically back to their strongholds. I think this was due to the pragmatic statesmanship of Gotrek Starbreaker, he knew that if it went on forever it would destroy both sides so he stopped fighting and went defensive, knowing that the dwarf holds were so defensible that should the elves want to continue the war they would mostly be inflicting damage on themselves. (He would have been in his rights, from a dwarf viewpoint, to carry on attacking until the elves surrendered and then demand recompense for every single dwarf killed. But thankfully he had some pragmatic sense.)

The elves did actually prepare to attack Karaz-Karak, but then the news of Dark Elf invasion forced them to withdraw their armies.

[The bearded one]

The elves did actually prepare to attack Karaz-Karak, but then the news of Dark Elf invasion forced them to withdraw their armies.

suicidally, I might add.

And then they abandoned the old world in its entirity, faced with the implacable hostility of the dwarf empire.

[woodster17]

suicidally, I might add.

And then they abandoned the old world in its entirity, faced with the implacable hostility of the dwarf empire.

Exactly. Starbreaker was content with what he deemed recompense for Elven crimes, so he withdrew. He felt the matter closed, the Elves didn't feel like letting it go and would have found themselves slaughtered had they assaulted Karaz-a-Karak. I find it interesting to consider how anyone defines 'winning' the War of Vengeance. Certainly the Dwarves were more satisfied with the outcome as i've already argued but in this case surely winning would incorporate achieving your initial objective? For the Dwarves that would have been vengeance, they succeeded in this by killing the king of the High Elves and taking his crown. On the other hand, did the Elves achieve any of their objectives? Losing thousands and being driven from the Old World sure sounds like a loss to me.

That being said, in hindsight no doubt the Dwarves realise that it would have been preferable for the war not to have occurred and to have kept the Elves in the Old World for safeguarding purposes.

[Ximinipot]

Both sides spend resources that they really couldn't spare killing each other, the elves almost lost half Ulthuan to the dark elves meanwhile and the war of the beard started the dwarfs long decline.

While the War of The Beard certainly helped dwindle down the the dwarf population, the real start of the Dwarven decline came at the hands of the Slann, doing the will of the Old Ones. I don't have my book with me at the moment, but the Slann, either raised the Worlds Edge Mountains to the height they are today, or shifted the mountain range itself, causing numerous dwarf hold to sunder apart and be filled with magma. That is the real reason for the Dwarves decline. I believe it's the original Lizardmen book that talks about this, it might have been the second book though, I can't remember exactly off the top of my head.

[TheDungen]

He would have been in his rights, from a dwarf viewpoint, to carry on attacking until the elves surrendered and then demand recompense for every single dwarf

Yes but a dwarven king decides when a grudge is settled, he cant settle grudges to easily though. He finished the war at the first chance to call the grudge settled.

And then they abandoned the old world in its entirity, faced with the implacable hostility of the dwarf empire.

No they left cause they needed their warriors at home. The dwarfs had settled their grudge, though they still didn't like the elves the matter was settled. I wonder what had happened if the elves had gone and pleaded for the crown back.

Also the generals preparing to assult Karaz-a-karak propably did so before Caradryel was chosen king, i think he would've sued for peace dark elfs or not, he doesnt seem like the kind of king to carry on a pointless war.

I wonder what had happened if the elves had admitted the mistakes of Caledor after the war and tried to re-establish relations with the dwarf rather than returning to Ulthuan.

[Skopey]

Ok if dwarves did have blackpowder at the time. Do you think the elves may have swung to the idea of creating their own black powder weapons? Especially if say a crafty Elf mage Captured a black powder weapon and through sheer egotism thought "pft!! I can do better than this! whether they would or not is debateable (no! ) But do you think Elves may have dabbled with the idea? or if not the wood/high elves maybe their black hearted brethern? I mean if the dwarves won using it for example. perhaps the dark elves would have captured a few Dwarf engi's and force them to make their own devilish blackpowder weapons to smite their goody two shoe cousins.

[The bearded one]

Yes but a dwarven king decides when a grudge is settled, he cant settle grudges to easily though. He finished the war at the first chance to call the grudge settled.

they fought for 400 years. That's like fighting 1 continuous war from the 1600's to the present! I don't think ravaging the high elfs major city in the old world and killing their king in single combat after 400 years of war can be regarded as being done 'a.s.a.p.' just to finally get it over with.

No they left cause they needed their warriors at home. The dwarfs had settled their grudge, though they still didn't like the elves the matter was settled. I wonder what had happened if the elves had gone and pleaded for the crown back.

Also the generals preparing to assult Karaz-a-karak propably did so before Caradryel was chosen king, i think he would've sued for peace dark elfs or not, he doesnt seem like the kind of king to carry on a pointless war.

I wonder what had happened if the elves had admitted the mistakes of Caledor after the war and tried to re-establish relations with the dwarf rather than returning to Ulthuan.

When the dark elves attacked, the elves left the old world in its entirity, not only retreating all their troops, but also all civilians and abandoning all the remaining cities, which not everybody liked (some becoming the wood elves). It was not merely a military withdrawal.

The elves have actually frequently petitioned for the return of the crown, but as far as the dwarfs were concerned they could more or less piss off. In the 'present' there are some voices amongst the dwarfs who think the crown should be returned as a gesture of goodwill, in exchange for an apology for the war.

[TheDungen]

they fought for 400 years. That's like fighting 1 continuous war from the 1600's to the present! I don't think ravaging the high elfs major city in the old world and killing their king in single combat after 400 years of war can be regarded as being done 'a.s.a.p.' just to finally get it over with.

400 years is much less for these races and the elven king had insulted a dwarven ambassador that's basically insulting the king himself. No event prior to the killing of Caledor was sufficient to settle the grudge. The death of caledor propably wasnt. The dwarfs are allowed to settle a grudge one life for one life, one battle for one battle or one insult for one insult. they decided on the last one. Because they had been fighting for 400 years.

When the dark elves attacked, the elves left the old world in its entirity, not only retreating all their troops, but also all civilians and abandoning all the remaining cities, which not everybody liked (some becoming the wood elves). It was not merely a military withdrawal.

A total military withdrawal meant the civilians had to be evacuated as well even with the dwarfs no longer openly hostile there were still plenty of dangers that could affect the colonies and the elfs couldn't know for sure that the dwarfs would keep their word and not attack again.

The elves have actually frequently petitioned for the return of the crown, but as far as the dwarfs were concerned they could more or less piss off. In the 'present' there are some voices amongst the dwarfs who think the crown should be returned as a gesture of goodwill, in exchange for an apology for the war.

Well i'm guessing they didnt plead for it cause the dwarfs promised to return if it if they pleaded for its return and i think they'd keep their word.

[grumbaki]

... In the 'present' there are some voices amongst the dwarfs who think the crown should be returned as a gesture of goodwill, in exchange for an apology for the war.

I haven't heard of that before. What source is that from?

[Craze_b0i]

Ok if dwarves did have blackpowder at the time. Do you think the elves may have swung to the idea of creating their own black powder weapons? Especially if say a crafty Elf mage Captured a black powder weapon and through sheer egotism thought "pft!! I can do better than this! whether they would or not is debateable (no! ) But do you think Elves may have dabbled with the idea? or if not the wood/high elves maybe their black hearted brethern? I mean if the dwarves won using it for example. perhaps the dark elves would have captured a few Dwarf engi's and force them to make their own devilish blackpowder weapons to smite their goody two shoe cousins.

Logic says yes, warhammer fluff says no. If we fast forward to the present day dwarfs and men have had cannon for thousands of years but no elf was ever inclined to copy them.

[Urgat]

400 years is much less for these races and the elven king had insulted a dwarven ambassador that's basically insulting the king himself. No event prior to the killing of Caledor was sufficient to settle the grudge. The death of caledor propably wasnt.

They got a king's head for a beard I'm sorry, TheDungen, but while you usually argue things based on facts (which is why I usually find your posts interesting), in that particular case, you don't, there's no ground to support your opinion. The Elf King insulted the Dwarf King, the Dwarf king sent an ambassador (that's an impressive thing for a dwarf, trying this much), the ambassador got shaved, the result is 4 centuries of war and Caledor slain. For an insult and a shaven beard. A dwarf would have certainly settled for shaving Caledor's hair, if you ask me. They paid themselves back a tenfold. In all honestly, what more could have they done? Pursued the elves on Ulthuan, killing them to the last and claiming Ulthuan for their own? Dwarfs have a bit more honor than that, I'd like to believe.

Logic says yes, warhammer fluff says no. If we fast forward to the present day dwarfs and men have had cannon for thousands of years but no elf was ever inclined to copy them.

Fluff actually says that elves despise black powder as a crude, smelly gimmick.

[TheDungen]

Its because the way diplomacy works, an ambassador is in all respects the head of state he represents when he's in office. The head of state cannot be present so he's represented by someone who speaks in his name and should for all purposes be treated as the person he represents. An action towards an ambassador is thus an action towards the head of state he represents. (that's why we have diplomatic immunity, arresting a foreign head of state is basically a declaration of war, however the actions of a person under diplomatic immunity should also be considered as the actions of the head of state he represents) Shaving the beard of an ambassador is saying he would've shaved the dwarf kings beard of if he was there. its kind of like trying to shoot a head of state and then someone takes the shot it doesn't change the fact that you tried to shoot the head of state. only it was a beard and not life in this case but dishonour is worse than death to dwarves.

They also believed that elves had attacked murdered and stolen prior to the shaving incident. And Caledor killed the kings son during the war. id say the war was for the dead dwarfs, Caledor's head was for the kings son and the stealing of the crown was for the beard shaving. Also note that dwarves view theft nearly as bad as murder especially when it comes to gold.

Dwarven logic is kinda mixed up. At its harshest it can be read as demanding one dead of the race that killed a dwarf for each dead dwarf. Other times they scratch the dead during one battle for a battle they won against that foe. Note that they add the deaths of their troops that died bringing about the victory in question though, so they basically can really never settle all the grudges since each time they settle one more are added.

they set out to settle the score for the ones that got murdered in the dark elf raids, when the elves defended themselves more dwarfs died which led to the dwarfs adding more grudges. and so on. Striking the entire war for the death of Caledor and taking the crown was thus brilliant, a score of grudges settled at no additional dwarves dead and so no grudges added.

And i agree the fact that they even bothered sending an ambassador instead of just marching to settle the grudge at once shows how high the dwarfs really valued the elf's friendship.
And i'm not arguing that both sides proved both inflexible and prideful, and maybe i'm biased against Caledor, but i feel that Gotrek Starbreaker being a pretty old king would probably be the wiser ruler (I am aware that Caledor is propably older than he was but compared to their races lifespan Starbreaker was older). Call it an alternate character interpretation =P

[Urgat]

All that is true and well, the fact is, the Dwarfs killed the HE king. You're treating it like they killed a mere elf, but he was not. Of course a king's not a mere elf obviously, but that's not all. He's not a mere king either, he's not the king of a nation, he's the king of an entire race, the one ruler of all the high elves. He is also supposed to be chosen by Asuryan. So the dwarfs killed the figurehead of a whole race, as well as the figurehead of their leading deity. Her... what I was arguing about again? "reads previous posts again". Ah yeah: I only disagree that the dwarfs cut the war short, when they got Caledor. They hit the jackpot, they beheaded their enemy. I don't disagree (or agree for that matter, I just gave no thoughts to it) about anything else.