[Spoilers] Outcast Dead Custode Fight

[Messiah]

As for the whole punching through armour, the Custode definitely wasn't wearing power armour. I have no idea why, but for some reason he was wearing chain-mail with bronze plate over top. He was armoured little better than an ancient Greek hoplite, from what I remember. I don't know why he was going to meet the most dangerous criminals on Terra in an antique, but there it is. I remember wondering while reading, "Why is this fool wearing chain-mail? That armour wasn't even particularly effective for its time period!"

Im sorry, but chainmail was amazingly effective at what it was made for: Stopping cuts. Sure it wont stop internal bleeding nor piercing weapons as effectively, but against cutting weapons, it is the best armour you can have, which is why it is still used by e.g. butchers (http://www.scobiesdirect.com/Product...oves+%2FAprons). The number one cause of death in war-time was infection of open wounds and chainmail stopped that.

Apart from that, you made an excellent point.

[Col. Tartleton]

I think we're underestimating what "Chainmail" means in 40k. Power armor is frequently referred to simply as plate armor in the Horus Heresy books.

What they probably meant is that he was wearing a bronzed power armor with soft armor underneath.



If not McNeil needs his published writing privileges revoked.

It's been stated repeatedly, that a Custodian to a Marine is like a Lion to a Wolf.

Can a Marine beat a Custodian? Yes.

The reason why the Custodes are better than the Marines is the same reason the Romans had a Praetorian Guard and Scholae or the same reason that Napoleon's Imperial Guard were crack if spoiled soldiers compared to the rest of his forces. Or why Hitler had his SS.

You --> Loyal Soldiers--> Soldiers --> Disloyal Soldiers --> Enemies

Emperor --> Custodes --> Imperial Fists --> Night Lords --> Orks

[Grey Hunter 88]

Im sorry, but chainmail was amazingly effective at what it was made for: Stopping cuts. Sure it wont stop internal bleeding nor piercing weapons as effectively, but against cutting weapons, it is the best armour you can have, which is why it is still used by e.g. butchers (http://www.scobiesdirect.com/Product...oves+%2FAprons). The number one cause of death in war-time was infection of open wounds and chainmail stopped that.

Apart from that, you made an excellent point.

You're correct, obviously, and I had a feeling I would be challenged on that statement.

What I was getting at was with the profusion of piercing weaponry in medieval combat (pole-arms, lances, bows, spears etc.), chainmail was not nearly as protective alone as it was layered with plate and leather. It can most certainly turn aside most any blade, but unfortunately blades were not a common sight on the medieval battlefield.

Chain mail certainly had its purpose, but in the grim darkness of the far future... well, I don't fancy its chances against a bolter! ;-)

As for Col. Tartleton's idea, if he really did mean bronzed power armour, then the World Eater did punch right through it...
I remember it pretty distinctly making me believe it wasn't power armour, but I am open to being wrong.

I imagined the illustration of the Chaos Space Marine wearing the chain loin-cloth in the codex, with the tag-line "Extra protection afforded, negligible".

[Lupe]

I imagined the illustration of the Chaos Space Marine wearing the chain loin-cloth in the codex, with the tag-line "Extra protection afforded, negligible".

That particular piece probably does offer negligible extra protection. It's a piece of thin metal placed in a location where it will more often than not be flapping in the air every time the marine moves. And everything it covers is protected by thicker ceramite.

If chainmail were actually be worn in place of power armour, it would actually provide protection. if it were worn above or underneath power armour, it would actually provide somewhat more considerable protection.

[Grey Hunter 88]

That particular piece probably does offer negligible extra protection. It's a piece of thin metal placed in a location where it will more often than not be flapping in the air every time the marine moves. And everything it covers is protected by thicker ceramite.

If chainmail were actually be worn in place of power armour, it would actually provide protection. if it were worn above or underneath power armour, it would actually provide somewhat more considerable protection.

True, though despite that, I personally think the joke behind that image was not the placement of the chain-mail, but rather that anything able to get through the ceramite itself would not be affected by some iron or steel rings.

[MvS]

On a slight tangent, aren't there references in the new rulebook to just 300 Custodes? It wasn't clear to me at the time of reading whether this means that there are only 300 left in the 41st millennium (which raises questions about whether Custodes are made any more or whether they have slowly whittles down over the millennia), or whether there are just 300 hanging around the Emperor's throne room.

For a group who are dedicated to protecting the Emperor, the Custodes are the most absolutely embarrassing counter-intelligence group in the galaxy.

Well mostly they're personal bodyguards of the Emperor, not secret agents, and when absolutely necessary they also act as force multipliers and the eyes and ears of the Emperor in a distant conflict or region. They seem to do all of this reasonably well.

They aren't war-fighters (in the sense that they aren't truly soldiers - they are more like a large and highly organised band of individual champions), and although they deal with some counter-intelligence issues (much like the US Secret Service), they aren't wholly dedicated or specialised to that role. They deal mostly with direct threats to the Emperor's person, not the politics and strategies of grand insurrections. They clearly have a good grasp of these things, but I think the Primarchs and their confidantes eclipse them in this area.

In that novel they ignored the most blatantly telegraphed "WE ARE GOING TO TURN AGAINST YOU" signs.

They did? They were highly suspicious but couldn't prove anything. Everything they reported back to Terra was intercepted and altered by Lorgar's sorcery and they were kept on the very periphery of what the Word Bearers were up to precisely so they couldn't figure out what was going on. Even Argel Tal is annoyed at the end of the First Heretic at having been kept away from the Legion for so long, babysitting the Custodes.

They apparently are hot-headed, egotistical alpha-males who fight individually, but not as a unit. That is just plain dumb for a group that needs to work counter-insurgency, and act as bodyguards and defenders. I just find their portrayal embarrassing in the novels.

To be fair to Aaron's depiction, the Custodes are painted as being so preternaturally skilled in combat that this makes up for any slight shortfalls in their cohesion as a unit. I mean it isn't that they can't work together at all and simply bump into each other and ignore what's happening to other members of their units. It's just that experienced Marines, who are preternaturally skilled at fighting as a unit, could identify shortfalls in the Custodes unit-cohesion in comparison with their own training - just as, no doubt, the Custodes could identify shortfalls in any Marine's abilities fighting alone against multiple enemies in comparison with the Custodes' own training.

If you think about it, any individual Custodian would still be as deadly even if all his unit (or legion) were slain (because they are optimised to stand by and for themselves), whereas a Space Marine is optimised to fight within a unit so wouldn't fair quite as well as a Custodian in the same circumstances. Naturally both types of warrior would still be incredible when fighting as a unit or as an individual, but when placed alongside each other their differences become more telling.

they just act so unintelligent, and incompetent. They barely put up a 'tremendous' fight. Heck, their leader gets beaten by the Word Bearer captain a few times in the dueling ring.

But there are descriptions of single Custodians rampaging through spaceships massacring everyone in sight and not even being slowed by the amassed security forces arrayed against them (the equivalent of Navy armsmen, Guard, and even giant battle-robots that don't seem all that dissimilar to Dreadnoughts). Similarly, Argel Tal gets defeated every single time he practices with the Custodians, except for after he is possessed by a daemon (so possessing all his abilities but with the additional strength and speed of a daemon). That sounds about right to me. Even then the Custodes manage to take down some of the possessed Word Bearers at the end of the book, despite the fact they don't know what they are up against and have never fought against daemons before.

Granted the final battle in Outcast Dead is a bit odd, but then that's 40K for you. There are exceptions to every single rule, and even reversals of exceptions. It can get a bit frustrating but there it is...

[sycopat]

On a slight tangent, aren't there references in the new rulebook to just 300 Custodes? It wasn't clear to me at the time of reading whether this means that there are only 300 left in the 41st millennium (which raises questions about whether Custodes are made any more or whether they have slowly whittles down over the millennia), or whether there are just 300 hanging around the Emperor's throne room.

From how I read it, the emperors standing personal bodyguard(The Companions?) is 300 custodes. There are far more than 300 in total, but there are at least 300 in the throne room 24/7.

[Grey Hunter 88]

Sound points well argued MvS.

I am still not convinced that the Custodes are impressive though.

To begin with the idea of the Word Bearers telegraphing their betrayal, it was pretty clear that something was up the way they were acting in general. I don't remember specific examples of the little things, but when they sat in on that blood sacrifice ritual on Cadia...
Not catching onto that was pretty shockingly embarrassing. I confess that I can't even remember the flimsy excuse they used, but once daemon-worshiping blood sacrifice comes into play, the Custodes really have NO excuse for letting that one slide.

I also still think that them acting as Rambo makes little sense for a bodyguard or elite protector unit. Custodes have been said to be masters in assassination and counter-espionage to my knowledge, and a group of individually potent warriors who perform less cohesively than the rank and file of a poor Chapter, don't sound like the men for the job.

Men like them can be distracted, confused, bound up with personal glory, hot-headed and all of the above. ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE when someone is putting on a co-ordinated show at killing your leader. They should function like the arbitrators. The second they even glimpse a sign of treachery, they fall into perfect ranks around the Emperor, not even moving their head from the assigned zones until the threat it clear.
Instead I just imagine some loonie throwing a pie and having 12 of the Custodes charge out after him whooping and hollering.

I realize that this has become exaggeration for humour at this point, but I don't see why a chapter like the Word Bearers, who are notably amongst the least martial (due to their other pursuits), should be able to notice flaws in the cohesion of an elite and important force like the Custodians.

They acted throughout that novel as auditors, nothing more. Poor auditors at that, who buy into the ridiculous claims and excuses of their employers.

It's just going to come down to personal opinion at the end of the day. It's what makes literature worth reading and discussing. Though what I think is pretty tough to argue against (and ostensibly the purpose for this thread) is that a half-naked world eater should not be able to beat a fully prepared Custode, with a gun and spear, at range.

Though if there are 300 Custodes now...

*Alicia Domenica is brought into the throne room during the Age of Apostasy*
Emprah: You must not follow this angry little man anymore! Vandire is anathema, and he must be purged.
Domenica: But my Emprah, what you speak is heresy! It is madness!
Custode: MADNESS!? THIS, IS, TERRA!!!!! *boot*

[Notanoob]

There are 300 Custodes that sit in the throne room protecting the Emperor are called the Companions. They're supposed to be the select elite and his personal bodyguards who never leave his side.

And may I remind everyone that in TFH and single Custodes comes very close to killing a Primarch and owns the captains surrounding him? I can't remember specifically, but I think he decapitates or kills something like 3 captains and almost kills Lorgar before he's critically injured and used as part of the sacrifice ceremony. Individually they're killing machines, used to duels and with outrageously quick reactions times and all that.

I'll have to read more about the specifics of the actual encounter, but it sounds sort of like a plot-assisted outcome.

[MvS]

Thanks for the response!

when they sat in on that blood sacrifice ritual on Cadia... Not catching onto that was pretty shockingly embarrassing. I confess that I can't even remember the flimsy excuse they used, but once daemon-worshiping blood sacrifice comes into play, the Custodes really have NO excuse for letting that one slide.

To be fair, the one Custodian who goes down with Lorgar and the others, Vendatha, tries to stop the ceremony, at gunpoint, and even declares Lorgar a traitor and tries to arrest or kill him. He's willing to face down a Primarch surrounded by that Primarch's chosen bodyguard. I don't think he expects to win, but he is acting in the stead of the Emperor so I think it's the principle. Oh and that Custodian is slaughtered and used as part of the ritual.

When they return to the flagship they tell the other Custodians that there was a massive fight with crazed heretics resulting in the deaths of the Custodian, a Word Bearer Chapter Master, Chaplain and trooper (all of whom Vendatha kills before getting it himself). They are unsure but they trust Argel Tal (and only Argel Tal) so they moderate their concerns, however they sill report it all back to Terra.

I also still think that them acting as Rambo makes little sense for a bodyguard or elite protector unit. Custodes have been said to be masters in assassination and counter-espionage to my knowledge, and a group of individually potent warriors who perform less cohesively than the rank and file of a poor Chapter, don't sound like the men for the job.

I think a little bit too much is being put on that one short scene from the First Heretic. The Word Bearers only just notices the difference between Astartes and Custodes fighting styles, having been able to observe the Custodians uninterrupted for a long while. It isn't a massively obvious thing. The Custodians aren't all running around like lone-wolf mavericks with bootlaces tied around their biceps and a torn-up rulebook to wipe their backsides with. They fight extremely well as a group - just not as extremely well as the Marines do. And it took highly experienced Marines to spot it, so it isn't really that obvious. Which means they still fight pretty damn well as a unit. In fact their fighting is described as being "almost identical to the Astartes" and the Word Bearers stare in amazement at the Custodians' skills, so they're still pretty impressive one way or another.

Men like them can be distracted, confused, bound up with personal glory, hot-headed and all of the above. ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE when someone is putting on a co-ordinated show at killing your leader. They should function like the arbitrators. The second they even glimpse a sign of treachery, they fall into perfect ranks around the Emperor, not even moving their head from the assigned zones until the threat it clear

I agree that's how they should behave when protecting the Emperor, but then we only really have descriptions of them fighting when the Emperor isn't around. So they are cut loose and not bound to behave in a particular way. I mean it just strikes me as implausible that the hand-created and trained personal bodyguards of the Emperor himself would be hubristic macho-******.

Instead I just imagine some loonie throwing a pie and having 12 of the Custodes charge out after him whooping and hollering.

I realize that this has become exaggeration for humour at this point, but I don't see why a chapter like the Word Bearers, who are notably amongst the least martial (due to their other pursuits), should be able to notice flaws in the cohesion of an elite and important force like the Custodians.

This is an important point that Aaron's spoken about on a few occasions. The Word Bearers were no less martial or successful as soldiers, as Astartes, than any other Marine of any other Chapter. It was their Primarch who was less martial. It was their Primarch who ordered them to spend months converting populations to Emperor worship. But just because the Word Bearers had other interests didn't mean they were less martial. In fact in many ways they were much like the Thousand Sons. They were all scholars as well as super-soldiers, but this fact didn't interfere with their abilities and inclinations as war-fighters

Also it's worth saying again that the 'flaw' of the Custodians was that they didn't fight exactly like the Astartes, who have brotherhood etched into their genes. This isn't the same thing as saying that the Custodians had no coherence as a disciplined fighting unit.

It's just going to come down to personal opinion at the end of the day. It's what makes literature worth reading and discussing.

Couldn't agree more and I bow to your wisdom on this point.

Though what I think is pretty tough to argue against (and ostensibly the purpose for this thread) is that a half-naked world eater should not be able to beat a fully prepared Custode, with a gun and spear, at range.

Yes, it wasn't handled brilliantly. It's funny to me that in the Blood Games short story (at least I think it was called Blood Games - it's the Abnett short about Custodians) we have an unarmed and unarmoured Custodian killing an Ogryn in a few heartbeats without breaking a sweat. Then we have an armed and armoured (sort of) Custodian getting beaten to death by an unarmed World Eater. Yes the Custodian is supposed to be old and injured, tangled in webbing and suchlike, but I suppose it just comes across oddly.

Even more, we have Babu, not even an Astartes and supposedly 'built to die', but there he was smacking around everyone like they were children. He comes across as much more powerful than the Astartes, although he lacks all the enhanced organs of the Emperor's finest I suppose.

[BeatTheBeat]

Though to be fair, Babu was a Thunder Warrior i.e proto-Astartes, which from what we can gather from TOD, especially from Babu talking about his past and also just from how he is described, seem to have been more powerful yet also more unstable than proper Astartes. So that one is not so weird, really.

Cheers,
BTB

[MvS]

Though to be fair, Babu was a Thunder Warrior i.e proto-Astartes, which from what we can gather from TOD, especially from Babu talking about his past and also just from how he is described, seem to have been more powerful yet also more unstable than proper Astartes.

True. The weirdness for me came from the fact that the Thunder warriors were unstable genetically (or whatever), but Babu still managed to survive for centuries. All while bemoaning that he was unstable and doomed to die. Seems to me that he lived a very long and successful life - more so than many Astsrtes. I mean what does he gain from the geneseed he steals? He may be able to grow extra organs to implant in himself, but then again the extra organs don't seem to be what he felt he was missing.

I just didn't get his beef really - other than the fact all the other Thunder Warriors seemed to have been killed off.