The animosity is between Black Templars players who excessively use first person plural pronouns when talking about their plastic toy soldiers, and Mat Ward. I don't think there was ever any real hostility between the Ultramarines and the Black Templars. Is there fluff on this I'd have missed? I mean, they'd probably disapprove of the Black Templars flaunting the Codex Astartes rules on numbers limitaitons, but they don't have any copies of the rule books or the fluff, so chances are they don't know that the Black Templars are breaking the rules so excessively.
Dorn was blackmailed with the threat of civil war, and it must have been quite galling for one of the defenders of Terra to return home to find the population turned against him and the man who put his own territories before Earth being venerated as a hero and supreme ruler of the Imperium.
More recently though it's the Dark Angels - a Templar ship managed to capture Cypher, but was confronted and threatened by a DA force - it's astropathic message informing the templars of these events was the last anyone heard of it.
I also see it as a bit of:
Sister: "I'm dad's favorite!"
Templar: "No, I'm dad's favorite! AND you're a witch!"
The miracles pulled off by the Adepta Sororitas certainly have all the makings of "magic" - to the black armored religious zealots that are Black Templar, why would the Emperor bestow these abilities on some silly human women instead of his favored sons, the Adeptus Astartes? Clearly they are little more than witches using the Emperor's name to divert attention from their Chaotic inclinations.
Also, a Canoness once spurned Helbrecht's romantic advances. He did not take it well.
I feel we should collaborate on a novel.
Sisters aren't witches - their acts of faith in the rules are more heavy handed for game purposes than would be apparent in the 'real' setting. The sisters do somewhat regard Astartes as mutants and aberrations (mentioned in the novel Faith and Fire) and don't entirely like the marines but do work with them in battle and (like most of the factions) tolerate or look past those basic distastes. But that mindset is really only going to show up in a conversation outside of a war footing or perhaps the odd heated debate about the pride/attitudes of the forces when discussing tactics in a shared battle - I don't see it as enough to justify this scope of division between two staunch imperial forces who would probably find themselves engaging in the same crusades against heretic worlds and apostates/rogue psykers and thus in the same war theatres a lot. It's way too contrived.
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Dorn and Guilliman were reconciled. There's no reason to suggest the Black Templars continued to hold a grudge. It's also using metagame knowledge and foisting it on the characters when they wouldn't reasonably have that information. You have to remember that you the reader know a lot more than what most of the characters in the fluff knew, unless they were there. All Dorn knew was that he went off, grief stricken, on a crusade, and then when he'd returned, his brother Guilliman, who'd also sent his legion off to spearhead the Scouring, had put the Imperium back together in his spare time. They may have disagreed about the changes proposed to the structure of the Legions in the Codex Astartes (turning them into Chapters), but there's never been any suggestion that Dorn begrudged Guilliman for stepping up when everyone else was dead, or absent. Guilliman was the hero. He wasn't the only hero, because certainly Dorn's actions during the Siege of Terra were heroic. However, Guilliman did the grunt work of saving the Imperium in the absence of the Emperor. Time has told us that ultimately, without a strong central leader that the Imperium was destined to fall into a bureaucratic nightmare, but at the time there was no reason for Dorn to be angry. If he wanted to be a part of the formation of the Imperium Secundus, he should have been around. Sanguinius and Ferrus were dead, Russ and Khan probably had no interest in administrative manners, and well, we're still not sure what Vulkan or Corax were up to. Guilliman has always been described as the one to do the work.
No offence Vet Serg but once again you're ignoring cannon statements, let me quote codex black templars for you (pg 6):
"Dorn called Guillman a coward, for the ultramarines had not participated in the defence of the imperial palace"
Dorn caved to Guillmans demand upon being threatened with the destruction of his legions, so he split his chapter and gave Sigismund the mission to re-recruit the legion again under the banner of the black templars. Byt eh time imperial athourities relaised that the BT didnt give a damn about guillman's 1.000 man cap it was already to late.
And i dont even play BT, i dont even play Spacemarines, i play chaos. So why would i refer to them in first person?
When exactly did this reconciliation happen? The only other major event before the Templars creation was Dorn's attempt at retribution/suicide against the Iron Warriors - Guilliman jumped uninvited all over that one too.
I would have thought that maybe its a clash of method? I mean BT are all for the purification of mankind and their hate of everything xenos and the sisters battle and live using a philosophy which justifies sisters repentia and penitent engines and who knows what else. Maybe the BT just see it as behaviour that can lead to corruption or behaviour that can encourage heresy? I am not up to date with the sisters background so I do not know why they would do such a thing but maybe the BT see it as against the way of the emperor??
Penitent engines are a form of punishment doled out by the ecclesiarchy, not the Sororitas, along with arco-flaggelation or conversion into a servitor. The templars themselves turn failed neophyes into cenobyte servitors who are tasked with carrying religious artifacts into battle.
Glancing through the Templar book - they come across as really in to the whole religion and 'burn the heretic' aspects of the ecclesiarchy. One entry (page 19) notes that Marshal Gervhart visited the planet of Lastrati to "take inspiration from such a potent display of faith".
The display in question? Total religious intollerance, and the slaughter of nearly fourteen billion humans in it's name. It was only after he found that the slaughter was tied to blood rituals rather than genuine faith in the Emperor that he took offence to it.
When did they reconcile? Probably somewhere between when the Ultramarines rescued them from being wiped out by the Iron Warriors and when they became the paragon examples of the Codex Astartes second only to the Ultramarines. Dorn was proud and arrogant like all the primarchs were, but he certainly didn't hate Guilliman even though they might have disagreed. Like I said, people begin to identify too closely with the armies they play, and they get trapped in these bizarre community mindsets amongst the online player bases, lol. Black Templars ignoring the limitations of the Codex turns into silly statements like "wiping their asses with Guilliman's worthless writings". Most of the time it seems the most fanatical players understand the fluff the least, lol.
But yeah, interpretations of Dorn hating Guilliman are completely unsupported by the fluff. There was a disagreement that ended up with some twitchy Navy admiral firing on the Fists, but ultimately it was resolved and the Fists became paragons of the Codex. Maybe the Black Templars still find the Codex's organization and training/recruitment standards to be less useful, but then again, they fight stupid, lol. So maybe they need to break their copy out and study the tactics and strategy sections some more. Regardless, there's never been a suggestion the Templars and Ultramarines don't get along. Not that I've ever seen. That belief is based on misinterpretations of the fluff it seems.
Ok, I've seen you throwin this out time and again (bolded) and I don't see any way at all that that would even happen or even be possible just because they decided to work together. If they would know all about the BT and just be able to learn all their secrets as just allies of convenience, then does that mean that the Tau can go visit Gulliman on the Ultramarines home world since they're battle brothers? What about the Eldar and Dark eldar? Think they're gonna go trade around eldar slaves and give tours of their most sacred and secret places to eachother?
I don't think so.
Vet serg i gave you a source for guillman and Dorn not liking each other. As for the BT and UM I merely asked a question when I brought it up. True i dont like codex astartes. i think its the worst piece of fluff ever. Hey lets limit the chapters to 1.000 marines, and totally forget we more players playing those chapters than there are supposed to be marines in a chapter.
Eh, the Codex: Astartes is a bit of fluff to show that the post-Heresy Imperium is so fething paranoid of anyone rebelling again that Guilliman purposefully makes the Space Marines utterly incapable of taking a moderately defended planet without assistance from the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard and so on and so forth. Of course Dorn took exception to such a thing (he had a brain and a feud with the Iron Warriors to settle). Eventually Guilliman strong armed Dorn into following Guilliman's ideals out of fear that Dorn might be plotting civil war (although why Russ was free to give Guilliman's Codex the finger I don't know...). The Templars were Dorn's last attempt to continue his ideals out of sight of the Imperium of Man and Guilliman's heirs, which is why he chose a zealous nutbag whom was utterly dedicated to Dorn and the Emperor's Crusade to lead them.
As to the conflict, its essentially something like this:
Sister: Praise be to the God Emperor, as he lets us do this wierd magic stuff!
Templar: B!tch, please. The Emperor is nought but a man and to suggest otherwise is nonsensical and treasonous to the Emperor's ideals.
Sister: Blasphemous Heretic!
*cut to scenes of blood and gore*
Essentially the two are utterly devoted to the Emperor in ways that are utterly opposed to the other's. There is only one way that can end unless they have something else to vent their holy rage on.
That the two are as eager to ally with each other as they are Xenos is utterly nonsensical however. Another oddity in the Allies table (forgiven, as the same table allows for a Trazyn and Valeria army. Nuff said)
There have been plenty of direct quotes from the source material regarding Dorn and Guilliman butting heads, would you care to provide even one for this reconciliation?
Templars have never been noted as declaring a crusade against Imperial worlds for their faith. They have however - as quoted from the Templar codex itself above - actively approved religiously motivated slaughter on a scale that makes the sisters look like a bunch of blood-shy softies.
"Trust Him to intercede, and protect"
"Grant us the strength to pierce their unclean flesh"
"We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty..."
"Lead us from despair to hope, from faith to slaughter"
Sound like the sisters chanting in their faith? All straight from the templar dex. They pick their champion based on visions from the Emperor, carry holy relics into battle, and count amongst their most holy relics a banner from the campaign on terra which honours the original Brides of the Emperor. They worship, pray to, and make offerings to the Emperor - page 18 of the templar dex.
Only the first one is really strange. The second one can be a request for him to guide them which he can do without being divine. Third, something can be sacred without being divine. And fourth is their faith in their mission.
Of course thats not what was intended cause the templar dex was written before the HH books established that the space marines dont belive in the emperors divinity.
That's also why they believe the SoB are witches. since the emperor isnt a god then he cannot be responsible for the miracles around the sisters, which means there must be another source, thus they must be psykers, which is witches. and thus in service of chaos. I just wish they'd be agaisnt eh Grey knights too. its ridiculous they don't even trust their own with being librarians but they think that another chapter made up only of psykers is a good idea.
The idea that Dorn and Guilliman would be bitter rivals seems entirely fabricated by people who dislike the Ultramarines and want to invent an artificial rift to distance "their" (lol) primarch and chapter from them. Look, I understand that hating the Ultramarines is the cool thing to do, but the clash between Dorn and Guilliman over the Codex Astartes has never been extrapolated in the fluff as an irreconcilable rift between the two.
As far as them being my words, no, sadly not. It wasn't from this thread, but it's a common sentiment amongst Black Templars players that I've seen over and over on 40K forums. I didn't attribute it to anyone in particular for that reason. I'm just saying it's how one misinterpretation leads to bigger and more egregious distortions of the fluff.
That's nice. The fluff about only being 1000 warrior dates back to the earliest days of the game. The Codex Astartes was an explanation of why they only had 1000 Marines, not the reason why they only had 1000 guys. Space Marines were never intended to be front line troops for taking planets. They were specialized shock troops for handling the most dangerous and technical missions. The Imperial Army was the hammer and anvil. The mediocre writing of the inexperienced and research-light Black Library authors (aside from perhaps Abnett), combined with the fact that GW has a financial interest in making the Space Marines the protagonists, has limited the influence of the Imperial Army in the Horus Heresy books, but even at the much larger legion sizes of recent fluff, there's not enough Space Marines to actually assault moderately defended planets without the Navy and Guard anyway. Everyone serves their purpose.True i dont like codex astartes. i think its the worst piece of fluff ever. Hey lets limit the chapters to 1.000 marines, and totally forget we more players playing those chapters than there are supposed to be marines in a chapter.
Russ gets away with flaunting the Codex because the Wolves stay dispersed and they're running only a few hundred Marines over prescribed numbers. The Templars are running somewhere around six to eight times the numbers allowed, lol. It's a little more egregious. I mean, I don't hate the Black Templars, so don't mistake this. I find their fluff a little amusing because it's ridiculous (no small unit leadership, throwing your rookies into units of heavily armored shock troops wearing light armor incapable of repelling the firepower those shock troops are sure to draw, abandoning supporting fires like artillery and heavy weapons squads, etc), but I don't really harbor them any ill will, because, well, they are plastic toy soldiers. So there's no need to be so defensive. Saying that the Black Templars and Ultramarines can get along isn't a bad thing, haha.
Page 14 ... and nothing. Not a thing about reconciliation. It was Guilliman's way or civil war.
The only thing the Index Astartes states is that there were so many Imperial Fists that would not accept Guilliman's demands that Dorn had to whittle them down below 1000 men in the Iron Cage.
The thousand-ish dissenters that survived? - the original templars.