Let it rest Rick, some people just can't admit that they're wrong.No, in a permissive ruleset the onus is on you to prove that you can do something. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. Again, and I'm getting really tired of repeating this, the rules never say I can't move or add terrain in the middle of the game. Or kick you in the nads every time I lose a model. You see where this is going?
Actually, this is wrong. Pg 66 says that the psyker generates his full allocation of warp charge points "at the start of each turn." Unless otherwise specified, turn is taken to mean player turn. So yes, you do generate warp charges to use in your opponents turn as well.Originally Posted by rskrap
As to the other discussion, I haven't had the time to go over the rules in detail yet, so I have yet to formulate an opinion.
Pg 66 Last sentence of GENERATING WARP CHARGE. "Any unused warp charge points are lost at the end of the turn." Your turn, SO you have none during your opponents turn.
It's all fun and games until someone gets exsanquinated!
Until you generate more at the beginning of the next (player) turn.
Did you even read my post? Yah, they're lost at the end of the turn if they're not used, but they're also generated "at the start of each turn". As in, at the start of each player turn.
Just have a quick side question. What about a warlocks power. The one that uses the template with overwatch?
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EldarRaven's Deep Thoughts Corner:
Hi, with all due respect your quote above says "normal" shooting attack. In my eyes Witchfire is not a normal shooting attack.
On the flip side, Psykers generate all their warp charge at the beginning of each turn (not game turn), so they would have all their warp charge available.... are there any powers that state you can use them in the opponents turn? (not fully read them all yet)
But the most straight forward interpretation is not correct, the correct interpretation is correct. That is, the one that matches the what is actually written in the rules, be it straightforward or rediculously convoluted.
All of that is, of course, true. However, as I already pointed out, when someone is arguing that they do have permission, a rebuttal needs to point out how their arguments are flawed. Pointing out that they need permission does not a rebuttal make, everybody already knows that.No, in a permissive ruleset the onus is on you to prove that you can do something. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. Again, and I'm getting really tired of repeating this, the rules never say I can't move or add terrain in the middle of the game. Or kick you in the nads every time I lose a model. You see where this is going?
I already said I do not have the book, so I do not know which side is correct (based on the thread, I'm leaning towards "no" - there have been a couple of decent arguments amongst the nonsense).
jt.
After reading the rules i don't see why you wouldn't be able to us a witchfire spell in a overwatch.
On Page 69 Under Witchfire Paragraph 2 it stats ("Note that, as witchfire is a shooting attack"). Also after reading the rest of witchfire it doesn't stat that you can only use them in your Shooting Phase.
On Page 21 Under Resolve Overwatch Paragraph 3 it stats ("An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack(albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase")). So to me it sounds that if your charged, your aloud to make a shooting attack. Which is what witchfire is described as.
Also it was mentioned about running in overwatch.
On Page 14 Under Run Paragraph 1 it stats ("In their shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing"). No where under the Resolve Overwatch does it stat that your getting a shooting phase, just a free shooting attack. Also again what i mentioned was on page 21, it even stats that your in your opponents Assault phase. So no Run.
Last edited by Mike45; 10-07-2012 at 17:45.
Page 14: "In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing."
Page 69: "Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."
I'm really not seeing any functional difference here. If you can do one, you can do the other.
Of all the threads in all the forums in all the world you had to post into this one.
I think the Page 69 quote about covers it. It clearly states that witchfire manifests in the Psyker's shooting phase. Overwatch is not the Psyker's shooting phase so witchfire does not manifest, so can not shoot.
To be honest, I feel if the writers had intended for witchfire to be an overwatch attack then they would have mentioned it.
Yup Rick your absolutely right. I somehow totally missed that first part of Witchfire.
Equating Witchfire to shooting attacks is strictly not enough to pass them off as being able to be used with Overwatch. Witchfire attacks are, in part, shooting attacks--but they are also other things. It's one of those "all Pitbulls are dogs, not all dogs are Pitbulls" situations; Witchfire being part of the broader set of "shooting attacks" does not mean it directly equates to shooting attacks.
More specifically for the context, it's a shooting attack and a Psychic Power, and Psychic Powers follow their own special rules--such as only being used when they tell you they can be used. In simplest terms, to use a Witchfire power, you must be able to both perform a shooting attack and cast the Psychic Power, and you must follow all the limitations for both.
So yes, Overwatch gives you permission to shoot during the enemy turn under specific circumstances. Does Overwatch also give you permission to change the timing necessary to perform your Psychic test? No, it absolutely doesn't. Being given an exception to the shooting rules does not magically create an exception to the Psychic Power rules; that would sorta defeat the purpose of being confined by two sets of restrictions in the first place.
If the designers wanted to allow you to use it in overwatch it would either say so directly or would say "Witchfire powers are manifested anytime the model can make a shooting attack" but it doesn't.
The bit of witchfire powers being used in the shooting phase is mainly distinguishing it from other psychic powers that are NOT used in the shooting phase. And this is the only thing that the argument against witchfire overwatch has to stand on. The argument is that witchfire is markedly distinct from other shooting attacks and that is only weakly substantiated: It isn't specifically making exemptions from normal shooting rules or saying anything that speaks to witchfire not being effectively used as a shooting weapon.
Yes, you can make that argument, but it's not a strong one, and it's not the only one.
Er, according to who? You? It's now your job to tell us why the rules say what they do, and which parts are important, and which aren't--and then dismiss the bits you decide are "weak"?
There's positively no permission to perform the Psychic Test for a Witchfire power in the enemy Assault phase. It's that simple; the inverse is just a case of people assuming Witchfire is identical to shooting, when it absolutely is not in terms of the rules. It's shooting with additional rules and restrictions, which are absolutely not met in the case of Overwatch.
That erroneous assumption is the only reason this thread exists. If you present it as a case of "hey, the rulebook said I'm allowed to shoot out of turn--does that mean I'm also allowed to change the timing of my Psychic powers?" it would rather obviously be an absurd statement that noone would adhere to. But everyone's so used to "PSA=shooting" because there was no meaningful distinction in the previous edition that they're skipping a whole bunch of steps inbetween.
I'd say if you spared enough Warp Charge to use it (Since Warp Charge recharges at the beginning of YOUR turn) then I don't see why not.
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How about the argument that Overwatch uses the Snap Shot rule? The Snap Shot states that these shots are fired without time for thought so are limited to BS1 attacks.
My argument is if you don't have time to aim a pistol, do you really have time to steady your mind, reach into the warp to gather the power needed for your Psychic shooting attack?
So then you can never snapshot a Psychic Power?
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I wouldn't have said it that way....if you read any of the fluff books (path of the seer example) a seer can travel in warp and witness several different futures in the time of a single heart beat. So I would say yes to your question based on that.
Anyway no one commented on what I asked about a warlocks power (Destructor) since it is always on would that allow me to use as an overwatch then?
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EldarRaven's Deep Thoughts Corner:
incorrect as explained earlier
Pg 66 says that the psyker generates his full allocation of warp charge points "at the start of each turn." Unless otherwise specified, turn is taken to mean player turn. So yes, you do generate warp charges to use in your opponents turn as well.
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