Update Space Marine Codex/Apple, GW and You!

[Inquisitor Engel]

I disagree. Plenty of RPG materials only cost $1, yet you still see them pirated. You can't compete with free, and some people are just going to pirate things for whatever reason. Legitimate buyers will pay fair prices, though there is plenty of room for discussion on what's fair.

Indeed. People will pirate whatever they can. As an aside, Valve's foray into Linux seems a bit pointless to me, since no one I know with Linux actually wants to you know... pay for anything... hence Linux. GW didn't do Android first for a reason - Apple owners typically pay for their stuff. (Not saying Android owners steal necessarily, but as a group they are not so easily parted with their money)

I think GW knows how it easy it is to find pirated .pdf codexes online. They can't charge $45 for an official copy of the exact same thing.

THIS.

[Vektorraum]

since no one I know with Linux actually wants to you know... pay for anything... hence Linux.

Thankfully that is not true at all for the majority of linux users. There's more to it than the lack of an initial price tag: independence, transparency, long term support, etc.

GW didn't do Android first for a reason - Apple owners typically pay for their stuff. (Not saying Android owners steal necessarily, but as a group they are not so easily parted with their money)

Yeah, it seems as if apple users are easily convinced to pay loads for identical (or even inferior) products just for the apple logo...

I think GW knows how it easy it is to find pirated .pdf codexes online. They can't charge $45 for an official copy of the exact same thing.

THIS.

I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360°-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

[Spacemunkie]

iBooks Author costs GW zero to use and to publish content. Blaming Apple for GW's choice of publishing tool is bordering on the cretinous. The reasons GW use iBooks is because it's free and because any designer can cobble together content very easily. Adobe's multi-platform alternative with near identical functionality is comparatively expensive - an expense that likely wouldn't pay for itself atm.

[Vektorraum]

A common eBook format doesn't require anything outside a word processor or dtp software with html output and a free tool to convert the file. I am also not sure if a company producing and selling as many books and other printed media as gw would shy away from a little expense on necessary layouting/publishing software. The iBook software being free is largely irrelevant for them.

[tiger g]

I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360°-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).[/QUOTE]

I guess you have not used it. It is not just a PDF. With the glossary lookup and other features it is much easier to use than a pdf or a hard cover book. As was said before if you want you can get a pirated pdf already.

I am enjoying ease of use of both the space marine and necron codexes.

[Vektorraum]

The lookup can be done just as easily with a pdf or any eBook format.

[ForgottenLore]

The lookup can be done just as easily with a pdf or any eBook format.

I have yet to encounter a pdf or other ebook format that has the ease of use that this style does (which I am guessing is what you mean by "the lookup", have never encountered that term outside of this thread before either). Think you could point to one?

[Vektorraum]

With the glossary lookup

"the lookup"

I was referring to the text popup that you can get in the codex iBooks when you click on a USR or weapon name (i hope that's what tiger g meant). The same can be done using footnotes in eBooks; e.g. highlighting the corresponding number or letter next to a USR would display the additional information on a kindle (it won't be in a neat popup but at the bottom or top of the page though).
A pdf file allows the inclusion of notes that popup like a post-it or even real popups using forms with show/hide properties. In addition you can create links pointing to different parts of the document. All of that can be used for the "lookup".

[Inquisitor Engel]

Thankfully that is not true at all for the majority of linux users. There's more to it than the lack of an initial price tag: independence, transparency, long term support, etc.

I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.

Linux is not an operating system, it's a lifestyle choice.*

Yeah, it seems as if apple users are easily convinced to pay loads for identical (or even inferior) products just for the apple logo...

Specs aren't everything. The reason most people buy iPhones over and over again (many of whom had never touched, and still haven't touched, another Apple product) is simple: Experience.

I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360°-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

Then it's clear you're haven't used it, making almost all of your arguments here invalid. Scanned PDF's of the Codexes aren't searchable either which makes this... well, it's more convenient that carrying a bunch of books around, but not by much.





*Valve is doing it purely for publicity, they know there's almost no money in it, as far as big-picture goes.

[Vektorraum]

I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.

As a scientist i have my own prejudices vs market "research", so please bear with me. But how thorough are those studies, what was the scope and goal of them and lastly who financed them?

I don't have any numbers, but i'd guess that linux is usually not used as the OS of choice if you are looking at games, so why would anyone really bother with porting games? There just aren't enough customers to warrant additional development time. In addition the support from hardware vendors for linux "drivers" and/or documentation is still not as good as for the mainstream OSs, further increasing the needed manpower.

There are far fewer games running on apple systems than are available for PC, even though the apple customers "pay for things". Why is that? Perhaps due to the lack of gaming enthusiast on apple side? The additional manpower needed to port stuff?

Linux is not an operating system, it's a lifestyle choice.

Freeloading is not part of it though.

Specs aren't everything. The reason most people buy iPhones over and over again (many of whom had never touched, and still haven't touched, another Apple product) is simple: Experience.

I've only ever used apple smartphones (and am currently using one). So it might be naive of me to think that android phones offer just as much ease of use, quality and satisfaction. The same goes for tablets. I've only got my iPad to judge the rest of the available devices. Looking at pictures and sales figures led me to believe that there aren't many differences.

Then it's clear you're haven't used it, making almost all of your arguments here invalid. Scanned PDF's of the Codexes aren't searchable either which makes this... well, it's more convenient that carrying a bunch of books around, but not by much.

I've said as much, when i asked for a description of the digital codices specialties some time ago in this thread. I am again judging from pictures and descriptions in this thread. The codex itself seemed to be a nicely laid out piece of text with additional images and borders. There are popups for USRs, etc and 360° images.
I was then merely stating that you could emulate most of that (exception are most likely the 360° images) with a pdf or a common eBook format.

I hope that gw will release their codices for more systems than iBooks in the future. That's probably why i derailed this thread even further. Sorry for that.


One last thing: pdfs are certainly searchable if they contain text. So i'd guess that pirated stuff would make use of OCR software. I did not try to promote pirated stuff nor do i want to do it now though. It merely came up as part of the arguments.

[Inquisitor Engel]

There are far fewer games running on apple systems than are available for PC, even though the apple customers "pay for things". Why is that? Perhaps due to the lack of gaming enthusiast on apple side? The additional manpower needed to port stuff?

It's slowly changing, and has been for some time. It's a long historical discussion, really.

Freeloading is not part of it though.

For people choosing it for servers and scientific work, I'd agree with you, but that's not everyone using Linux either (though it definitely makes up a larger portion of the devices running it).

I hope that gw will release their codices for more systems than iBooks in the future. That's probably why i derailed this thread even further. Sorry for that.

Oh definitely, bigger market = a good thing. That said, GW took the easy way out and went with iBooks Author, which while easy and great, isn't usable with any other service or device that I'm aware of.

One last thing: pdfs are certainly searchable if they contain text. So i'd guess that pirated stuff would make use of OCR software. I did not try to promote pirated stuff nor do i want to do it now though. It merely came up as part of the arguments.

Most people scanning in Codexes are just doing them as images. From what I understand, having a program scan images and figure out text isn't cheap or easy. Someone smarter than I may know of something nice and fun though. Even the playtest print-ready PDF's GW sends out don't have the text as... well as text. I always assumed they did this for security.


As an aside, I'd really like to see the BSG Rulebook get the iBooks treatment. Currently free, but I'd pay good money for it.

[Vektorraum]

Oh definitely, bigger market = a good thing. That said, GW took the easy way out and went with iBooks Author, which while easy and great, isn't usable with any other service or device that I'm aware of.

Back when they decided to create a digital codex the iPad might have been the only device they deemed suitable for tabletop use (eBook readers were just gray scale and no android tabs around). Judging from the positive response testing the waters in this way was overall a good thing, i.e. customers are satisfied and hopefully the sales figures support their decision to go digital.
I remain optimistic that some day we won't be "forced" to carry around all those paper tomes any more regardless of our preferred displaying device

[carlisimo]

I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360°-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

With a .pdf, it's fairly obvious you're using a cheap copy that doesn't quite fit the device you're using. On a 10" screen the text is too small, so you're zooming in and out a lot. Image-heavy pages might take a couple of seconds to load. Going from page to page is not as smooth, quick, or easy as flipping through a real book or eBook. A "good" .pdf would probably have double the number of pages, with each page having half the content. At that point you're doing enough work to go all-out with a real eBook.

eBooks should be fine, but they take some work to put together. Apple makes it cheaper and easier to make an iBook. The smaller investment required makes it more appropriate for an experiment like this one. If it works, then it would be worth it for GW to pay the costs of making eBooks.

Besides, all this started before the Nexus 7 came out (I think it'll have a strong effect on the tablet market). GW started this project back when the only successful tablets were the iPad and the Kindle Fire. I don't see GW wanting to work with Amazon... which leaves the iPad.

It's only been the last couple of months that Android and Windows tablets have looked like they had any promise.

[ForgottenLore]

I was referring to the text popup that you can get in the codex iBooks when you click on a USR or weapon name

Ah, that makes sense. And yes, a pdf or ebook is capable of that.

That is not what would make this format so much better (for me) than any other ebook I have seen before. It is the interface and ease of navigation. As I said in this post earlier in this thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=1#post6326531

The only other..."book" I have encountered that had this type of navigation wasn't an eBook, it was a dedicated app. I also don't know if the android version of it used the same navigation system or not.

In my experience, ebooks are perfectly fine for basic linear reading; novels, magazine articles and the like, but they pretty much suck for anything that you need to flip back and forth in, and GW codexes seem specifically designed to require a lot of flipping back and forth. The navigation on the digital SM codex is by far the easiest I have ever seen a digital document perform that function. It still isn't quite as easy as with a physical book, but it is close.

I hate proprietary formats, but I love functionality more. If someone can show me that basic epubs, or some other, non-proprietary format can accomplish the same ease of use as an iBooks Author book then I will be all about how GW (and everyone else on the planet) should be using that format. Until then though, I am sticking with what will actually work.

[Berk]

I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.

Every now and then there is an offer of Indie games in the form of the humble bundle. Four or five Indie games are bundled together in a single offer, they are cross platform, and you can choose how much you wish to pay for them. They always give a breakdown of the amount people have paid and how this breaks down by platform.

For the Humble Bundle 4, the figures for downloads are unsurprising, Windows wins by a mile, with Mac coming second and Linux below them, what is surprising is the average purchase cost made by platform From 435,000 downloads the average price paid is $5.45, Windows users fall below this average with $4.87, Mac users paid more with an average of $7.61 and Linux users had the highest average of $10.42. If my memory serves correct, this has been a fairly consistent spread across all the the humble bundles so far. The results do get skewed slightly by some people paying thousands of dollars for the bundle to support the indie games development (although I don't know if it states what platforms these people are paying for the games for), but it's still quite interesting.

While this isn't scientific or conclusive, it does show that Linux users are willing to put their hands in their pockets to get games that will run on their platform. The biggest issue is normally compatibility across all the different hardware configurations out there along with the myriad of distributions, all with their own little quirks. Android has less of the issues with the distributions, but still suffers with compatibility between the wide range of hardware that runs it.

[Dangersaurus]

While this isn't scientific or conclusive, it does show that Linux users are willing to put their hands in their pockets to get games that will run on their platform.

It really only shows that Linux gamers who are interested in indie games are willing to pay slightly more than non-Linux gamers when there's a fire sale on bundled games.

[Inquisitor Engel]

It really only shows that Linux gamers who are interested in indie games are willing to pay slightly more than non-Linux gamers when there's a fire sale on bundled games.

Indeed. There's also a LOT of hate directed at the Humble Indie Bundles by some developers. I tried to put a similar sale together for our service and at least half of the responses from Indie devs (whom we have EXCELLENT relationships with) were to the effect of "We're going to pass, this whole thing about making Indie games super cheap needs to stop. They're priced what we think they're worth."

Some of the more salty replies said the HIB was a *********** piece of **** run by *****.