Bastion's Battlements

[Nurgling Chieftain]

One thing that excites me about 6th edition is adding fortifications to my armies. Specifically, I would very much like to have a Chaos Bastion converted into a Word Bearer Cathedral to the Dark Gods. So, I've been looking into the rules for them. And, the rules seem... Well, they seem rather incomplete. Just getting started seems to require making rather more assumptions than I'm comfortable making with bare rules (weird interactions between special rules, I don't have a problem with), yet without some basic assumptions you run quickly into direct contradictions.

Okay, I'm getting ahead of myself, here.

1. Does a Bastion even have Battlements?

Nowhere in the datasheet for the Imperial Chaos Bastion is there anything about the battlements. And yet, they're clearly present on the model, and indeed they're specifically called out in the image thereof on a nearby page! So, I'm going with "Yes, there are battlements."

2. Do the Battlements count as a separate building?

This one is actually pretty simple, the rules say it does. I'm not even sure it should be a question. I thought it might make more sense if it only counts as a separate building in that you travel to and from them in that manner, but it doesn't have any such caveats. Still bugs me to have a whole second building tacked on just because I'm assuming the thing has battlements despite the datasheet.

3. What's the Battlements armor value?

If it's a separate building and can take damage (there are specific rules for that, so apparently it's a valid target if you really want to), then it must have an armor value. I'm going to assume that armor value is the same as the rest of the building, because nothing says otherwise, and bastions in general have a listed armor value, so maybe that's good enough.

4. What cover save can models in the Battlements take?

This... This is where it starts getting difficult. Once again, they datasheet says nothing. The Battlements rules themselves are even less helpful, suggesting that they might provide some sort of cover save without elucidating what the cover save, by default, might be. Anyway, the battlements will pretty easily provide 25% obscurement from most angles, so there's clearly a cover save involved. I've got two guesses: first, it could count as "fortifications", which are 3+, because it's essentially the very definition of a fortification. But... Aegis Defense Lines are also practically the definition of a fortification, and only provide 4+ (2+ for GtG), and the Battlements of the Bastion model look an awful lot like an Aegis Defense Line. On Meriwether's old rule of "when in doubt, assume the rule that benefits you least", I'm going with the Aegis Defense Line rules.

5. Can you shoot at the roof gun emplacement?

So I'm probably going to put an Icarus Lascannon or Quadgun up on the roof, for that nice free shot against incoming Stormravens before their contents fill the bastion with grenades (which, BTW, is brutal). But Gun Emplacements, despite being eligible to get destroyed from damage to their building, are apparently separate models with their own statlines, and if it's on the roof - i.e., in the battlements - then I assume that it's both part of the "battlement building" and a target in its own right (per the rules and statlines for Gun Emplacements). Conversely, it is counter-intuitively not a gun emplacement in the very building it was purchased for, so damage to the main body of the Bastion won't hurt it unless you bring the thing crashing down! Hopefully it'll get a cover save from the battlement, whatever that is.

...Heck, I'm not sure you can't shoot at the heavy bolter emplacements. I'm not at all sure if anything can/will happen to those when you throw grenades in the fire points.

6. Can units disembark from the Battlement?

A fairly large portion of the Battlements rules is given over to models embarking to the battlement. As far as I could tell, no mention whatsoever was made of disembarking from said position. By RaW, it seems to me that only the rules for moving to adjacent buildings and bloody well jumping off directly apply. On the other hand, it seems very reasonable to me that the embarkation rules should be inversable, such that models on the roof can exit the building so long as the intervening interior of the Bastion is not in enemy hands.

So...

If there's anything I've missed, if you can shed more light on these situations, or more darkness on related situations. it would be appreciated.

[Navar]

One thing that excites me about 6th edition is adding fortifications to my armies. Specifically, I would very much like to have a Chaos Bastion converted into a Word Bearer Cathedral to the Dark Gods. So, I've been looking into the rules for them. And, the rules seem... Well, they seem rather incomplete. Just getting started seems to require making rather more assumptions than I'm comfortable making with bare rules (weird interactions between special rules, I don't have a problem with), yet without some basic assumptions you run quickly into direct contradictions.

Okay, I'm getting ahead of myself, here.

1. Does a Bastion even have Battlements?

Nowhere in the datasheet for the Imperial Chaos Bastion is there anything about the battlements. And yet, they're clearly present on the model, and indeed they're specifically called out in the image thereof on a nearby page! So, I'm going with "Yes, there are battlements."

Yes, it clearly does.

2. Do the Battlements count as a separate building?

This one is actually pretty simple, the rules say it does. I'm not even sure it should be a question. I thought it might make more sense if it only counts as a separate building in that you travel to and from them in that manner, but it doesn't have any such caveats. Still bugs me to have a whole second building tacked on just because I'm assuming the thing has battlements despite the datasheet.

No, it isn’t a separate building. A building with battlements is a multiple part building (see page 92 of the BGB.) They are only considered separate buildings for shooting and assaults.

3. What's the Battlements armor value?

If it's a separate building and can take damage (there are specific rules for that, so apparently it's a valid target if you really want to), then it must have an armor value. I'm going to assume that armor value is the same as the rest of the building, because nothing says otherwise, and bastions in general have a listed armor value, so maybe that's good enough.

14 because of the previous answer. It is ONLY a separate building for shooting or assaults. Targeting the battlements hurts the models on the battlements, while targeting the building itself hurts the models inside the building.

4. What cover save can models in the Battlements take?

This... This is where it starts getting difficult. Once again, they datasheet says nothing. The Battlements rules themselves are even less helpful, suggesting that they might provide some sort of cover save without elucidating what the cover save, by default, might be. Anyway, the battlements will pretty easily provide 25% obscurement from most angles, so there's clearly a cover save involved. I've got two guesses: first, it could count as "fortifications", which are 3+, because it's essentially the very definition of a fortification. But... Aegis Defense Lines are also practically the definition of a fortification, and only provide 4+ (2+ for GtG), and the Battlements of the Bastion model look an awful lot like an Aegis Defense Line. On Meriwether's old rule of "when in doubt, assume the rule that benefits you least", I'm going with the Aegis Defense Line rules.

3+ it is clearly a fortification.

5. Can you shoot at the roof gun emplacement?

So I'm probably going to put an Icarus Lascannon or Quadgun up on the roof, for that nice free shot against incoming Stormravens before their contents fill the bastion with grenades (which, BTW, is brutal). But Gun Emplacements, despite being eligible to get destroyed from damage to their building, are apparently separate models with their own statlines, and if it's on the roof - i.e., in the battlements - then I assume that it's both part of the "battlement building" and a target in its own right (per the rules and statlines for Gun Emplacements). Conversely, it is counter-intuitively not a gun emplacement in the very building it was purchased for, so damage to the main body of the Bastion won't hurt it unless you bring the thing crashing down! Hopefully it'll get a cover save from the battlement, whatever that is.

...Heck, I'm not sure you can't shoot at the heavy bolter emplacements. I'm not at all sure if anything can/will happen to those when you throw grenades in the fire points.

No, you cannot anymore than you can target a Lemun Russ Battlecannon.

6. Can units disembark from the Battlement?

A fairly large portion of the Battlements rules is given over to models embarking to the battlement. As far as I could tell, no mention whatsoever was made of disembarking from said position. By RaW, it seems to me that only the rules for moving to adjacent buildings and bloody well jumping off directly apply. On the other hand, it seems very reasonable to me that the embarkation rules should be inversable, such that models on the roof can exit the building so long as the intervening interior of the Bastion is not in enemy hands.

Yes, you can disembark from the Battlements just like you can embark to them.

So...

If there's anything I've missed, if you can shed more light on these situations, or more darkness on related situations. it would be appreciated.

These are all my opinions from a through reading of the rules though. Also I applied some Common sense (despite how dangerous that can be at times like these.)

[Madcapmushroom]

I'm actually glad this question was posted as i was wondering the same myself. Thanks Navar for clearing that up.

I do however have a question, if you purchase a gun emplacement does it have to go on the roof or can you deploy it say, in base contact with the building or even within 2 inches of the building?

Also if you place it on the roof can the men inside the building fire it?

[nichimus]

Hey guys,

thanks for clearing a lot of that up, however I have to disagree with Navar, I think you can indeed shoot at the emplacements u purchase, not the HB's. Reason for this is that these guns have a T and W value do they not? So why have a T and W value if they cannot be targeted/damaged? Everything else makes sense to me though.

[MarkNorfolk]

I think this is a little shakey: The quad gun and Icarus lascannon are described as a "gun emplacement" so should follow the rules for that terrain feature on page 105. The heavy bolters on the bastion are described as "emplaced". So, gamewise, is there a difference between a gun emplacement and a gun that's emplaced? If no then you can shoot out the heavy bolters from the bastion. If yes, you can't.

Cheers
Mark

[Madcapmushroom]

Cheers mark,

yeah i had been playing it that way. That the quad gun could be damaged but the bolters couldn't. Further searching through the net seems to reap the same, that the quad gun can be shot.

In relation to Nichimus and the T and W value, quad guns could be shot at on a defense line, just wasn't sure if they could on buildings.

Madcap

[Navar]

IMHO (and again this is just my opinion.) the quad guns on a bastion are "Mounted" while the Quad gun with the Aegis line is just hanging out on the ground.

I could see it going either way to be honest (because you can fire at a unit on the battlements, but it creates an interesting problem with the Fortress of Redemption and the emplaced missile silo located on one of it's battlements.)

My initial reaction is that you cannot single them out, but if my opponent insisted I would allow it without a roll off.

[Sons of Lorgar]

I'd say the h-bolters controlled from the inside of a bastion/fortification would count as wepon mounts in the same respect as sponsons on a vehicle, they can be destroyed through penetrating hit rolls, but not targeted individually.
With the battlements, I'd count the icarus/quad gun/comms array as a separate target as if they had been standing on open ground by an aegis line. My reasoning behind this is that the battlements count as open terrain in other respects such as the troops there is legal targets (with cover from below/sides) and it's possible to jump onto/off the battlements using jump inf.

[Dangersaurus]

Gun emplacements and emplaced weapons seem to have different rules (p.105 and p.96 respectively), but the terms are used interchangeably in many of the example shots and fluff pages. Hopefully we don't have a "gun emplacements are a special type of emplaced weapons" situation here.

The main distinction seems to be that gun emplacements require a model to shoot them, while emplaced weapons do not.

For now now it seems by explicit RAW you can target gun emplacements but not emplaced weapons. Even if the gun emplacement is surrounded by and being used by another squad, which is odd. A sensible house rule would be to treat it as part of the unit that is currently firing it.

[Sons of Lorgar]

For now now it seems by explicit RAW you can target gun emplacements but not emplaced weapons. Even if the gun emplacement is surrounded by and being used by another squad, which is odd. A sensible house rule would be to treat it as part of the unit that is currently firing it.

Not much more odd than Ork Big Gunz batteries or Eldar heavy support platforms where the pieces used to be vehicles with AV10 one-glance/pen kills included in mixed units

[Dangersaurus]

5th edition is sooo last month though.

Imagine a unit of Big Gunz surrounding one now (from an Aegis, don't think a unit of Big Gunz could all fit on top of a battlement with a gun emplacement). If the placement is right, short of character/sniper precise shots you can't pick out the artillery in the Big Gunz unit, but you can pick out the AA in the middle of that unit? Odd. Still, it's RAW, and it's hardly anything to worry about.

[Azazel]

It seems although there are Emplaced Weapons and Gun Emplacements. Where Emplaced Weapons cannot be targeted seperatley, but Gun Emplacements can.

Whats really confused this matter is in the entry for the Fortifications describing the Quad Gun and the Icarus Lascannon as Gun Emplacements. But on page 97 of the BRB it describes the Icarus Lascannon as an Emplaced Weapon.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

At most, that implies that the Icarus Lascannon is both an emplaced weapon and a gun emplacement, a state of affairs which merely allows it to use automatic fire. I'm okay with that. (Although I continue to maintain that this set of rules in general is a mess.)

[Dangersaurus]

It seems although there are Emplaced Weapons and Gun Emplacements. Where Emplaced Weapons cannot be targeted seperatley, but Gun Emplacements can.

Whats really confused this matter is in the entry for the Fortifications describing the Quad Gun and the Icarus Lascannon as Gun Emplacements. But on page 97 of the BRB it describes the Icarus Lascannon as an Emplaced Weapon.

They can be either. The Icarus upgrade to a bastion or aegis line is a gun emplacement. The Icarus that comes standard on the Fortress is an emplaced weapon.

[Azazel]

It says on page 97: "The bastion also has several emplaced weapons: a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof".

I would say that the upgrades for the Bastion are Emplaced Weapons because its Terrain Type is Medium Building. Whereas the Aegis Defence Lines are Terrain Type Battlefield Debris, so a Gun Emplacement upgrade for that would be targetable. But not for the Bastion.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

How are you getting around the fact that you buy the roof weapon as a "Gun Emplacement"? I think the most you can argue is that both rules apply. If you only apply one, then the mere description on page 97 would be overruled by the specific text of the entry.

[Dangersaurus]

I think the example on p.97 is in error (or purely descriptive). For the definitive types I'd look to the 'datafaxes' on pp.114-117.

[Azazel]

Well the Gun Emplacement is listed on page 105 under 'Battlefield Debris'. The Bastion is not Battlefield Debris, it is a Building (medium) and would use the rules described on page 96 for emplaced weapons.

I think that the datafaxes have the slightly confusing typo.

[Dangersaurus]

By that logic a comm relay would need a new set of rules for using it with fortifications, since it too is Battlefield Debris. Battlefield Debris is just a name for a nice catch-all category of rules regarding man/xeno-made battlefield terrain.

To the topic of disembarking from battlements: disembarking is a specific rule with specific effects on movement; therefore you never disembark from one part of a multi-part building into another. You simply move between parts - permission to do so is given on p.92 under "Multiple Part Buildings."

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Yeah, I mentioned that in my post. Don't you think that's odd, though? That you can embark directly to the battlements, going right through an embarked unit in the Bastion proper, but can't get out if there's a friendly unit inside the bastion without jumping? And even if there isn't a unit in the way, it'll take you two turns to get out.