Did the skaven kill Valten?

[warboss6820]

OK guys im sorry if this has already been answered but I dont see how it could have been deathmaster snitch who killed Valten. There is no way it was the skaven because normal skaven assasins hardly ever leave clues due to the council of 13 trying to hide the existance of the skaven. Deathmaster snitch NEVER LEAVES CLUES. There is no way that the best assasin in all of the warhammer world would not leave both his blade and the rune of the horned rat. Furthurmore snitch doesnt use the blade that was described, he uses blades that are made of I belive steel coating in a very leathal poisins. His blade doesnt glow to help his steath. No other skaven would dare assasinate the chosen of sigmar. Therfore it was not deathmaster snitch who killed Valten. I am open to all opions but please dont call me 'an idiot' because of my belives. Now that sounded religous so i'll stop typing now.

[grumbaki]

You do make a good point. It does leave the impression that Valten was murdered by a man, who left the "clues" behind to frame the skaven. My guess is that Valten was offed by Karl Franz. His little stunt of marching on Altdorf and demanding that the Emperor step down...it is one thing to give a hammer to a rebel so that he can fight for you. It is another thing to let your throne be in jeopardy once the war is over.

[Athelassan]

Yeah, it was pretty stupid. The official answer seems to be "yes" but with the redacting of a lot of SoC background anyway it's not even clear whether Valten "happened" at all.

What made the whole situation murkier, and more interesting, for me was the meeting between a handful of Imperial bigwigs between Valten's wounding and his murder (KF, Todbringer and Esmer, iirc). It seems awfully convenient that Valten, a serious threat to the stability of the Empire, died shortly afterwards. There were too many things about the assassination that just didn't feel right - the overt Skaven symbols everywhere, the missing body, and so on.

The most insane, and my favourite theory, I think is that Valten isn't really dead. KF and co recognise the potential of Valten but are wary of the iconoclastic Huss, so they execute a ploy to get Valten away from him so they can use him for their own ends. They pull a switch, possibly even reducing guard patrols and the like to make such an assassination more likely, and the guy murdered by Snikch is in fact some random soldier who looks a bit like Valten. The nursing staff discover the scene and report that he's been killed. Obviously though the powers that be can't let Huss see the body because he'll immediately notice it's not the right one. So that body is disappeared. KF then tells Huss that Valten's returned to Sigmar, blah blah, go and find the next one, thus getting him out of the way. Meanwhile Esmer takes the real Valten with him back to Altdorf, and subsequently to Marienburg. Once Valten has recovered and been re-educated he will prove a useful pawn, as well as a powerful champion in case Archaon comes knocking again, only now he will be working for Esmer and the Imperial establishment rather than Huss and the fanatic fringe (which now possibly includes Volkmar).

[Ultimate Life Form]

Valten? Who is Valten?

Storm of Chaos isn't exactly new, so background concerning the Skaven is prone to have changed since then. I don't remember reading the Skaven being paranoid about concealing their existence until recently. Considering the other half of the story has pretty much been ignored out of existence the whole discussion doesn't seem to have any basis. You can pretty much go ahead and believe what you think; you're correct.

Prize question: If it wasn't Snitch then who came up with the genius idea of framing a race for the murder that allegedly doesn't exist?

[Memnos]

Valten was murdered by Pete Haines, Andy Hoare and Gavin Thorpe.

[m1acca1551]

It could have been the church of sigmar trying to remove the possibility off there power being stolen by sigmar re-incarnate... the church of sigmar werent exactly pleased when huss brought valten forward proclaiming that the true power of sigmar was infact valten and not the grand theoginist. The church has the tools and ability to murder anyone and have a clear mind.

[Urgat]

Popular opinion was that it was Karl Franz, back then (well not him himself of course, but he ordered it).

[SkawtheFalconer]

It's an interesting question - the way it was written implied there was a plan (among the writers), and presumably that the culprit would eventually be revealed. Now, I doubt we'll ever know for certain, but KF seems the likeliest.

[woodster17]

This is a good question and one that I thought about a lot at the time. To the OP- why would we call you an idiot? This isn't pre-school, we are capable of reasoned discussion, particularly on this section of the forum In the immediate aftermath I tend to side with Athelassan's hypothesis, I thought it had been staged by the Empire hierarchy and we would a Christ like resurrection to further empower Valten as the reincarnation of Sigmar. On the other hand, nobody seems to have considered the possibility that the Skaven could well have done it and left clues on purpose as a warning of the huge power. No assassin would have left those marks without wanting to be recognised so it's plausible. In fact, all theories are plausible but unfortunately it seems we might never find out as games development seem to have either forgotten or got bored of this thread.

[Athelassan]

I think the subsequent Skaven release to the SoC stated outright that Snikch killed him. Which made me bang my head on the desk a couple of times.

Prize question: If it wasn't Snitch then who came up with the genius idea of framing a race for the murder that allegedly doesn't exist?

This is a good question. However, an equally good question is "why would Snikch leave clues pointing to himself given that he never does this?" Neither question really has a satisfactory answer. The way I'd look at it would be that during the war the Skaven became an open secret, and by the time of the assassination, everybody involved knew they existed, even if the authorities wouldn't officially acknowledge that. If we go down the conspiracy route, then presumably the Skaven-framing is really there just to convince one man (Huss) and it's likely that he knows about them.

[Urgat]

Prize question: If it wasn't Snitch then who came up with the genius idea of framing a race for the murder that allegedly doesn't exist?

It'd actually be very smart if we were in the real world. Skavens are no mystery for those to whom the subject really matters, so if they think as you do, well, KF is safe if he's the one who did it, right? As for the ones who don't matter: nobody said there had been an Empire-wide announcement that Blondie had been murdered by Deathmaster Snitch, best assassin of Clan Eshin, one of the four main clans of the Skaven race, led by yeedeeyadaa, what do you think? People maybe heard from someone who heard that his cousin heard that Valten died in the war up there in that freakish Middenheimer's place.

[TheDungen]

My money is on Johan Esmer. KF wasnt sure himself that Valten wasnt Sigmar. If KG did it then he wasnt dead but spirited away somehwere to recover in secret.

Note that by the current timeline none of this have happened yet. I'm not even sure if Huss has even discovered Valten yet.

[grumbaki]

It was colonel mustard, in the library, with the candlestick.

This would make a great warhammer version of clue.

[TheRatsInTheWalls]

To my knowledge, Snikch always used weeping blades, so his blades probably did glow. He's just good enough for this not to matter.

My theory was always this: The Skaven who took Zundap as the first city of the Over-empire staged the even with two goals in mind. First, they wanted to show just how powerful they were so that their clan could keep the city and because they were flush with victory. Second, they wanted to destabilize the Empire even further by either making its leaders distrust each other over an assassination by a race that "doesn't exist" or to remind them that the Skaven could hit them anywhere at any time. Either way, the overt assassination, and the taking of the body, would plant the seeds of paranoia and discord in the minds of the Empire's leading men. This is the only explanation I can think of that's labyrinthine enough to come from a Skaven mind.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Well Snikch i well capable of leaving clues if his superiors demand it for whatever reason.

Since SoC was before my time I'm not sure about the role the Skaven played so I can only speculate about their agenda. However we're presented with two possible conclusions here:


1. It was the Skaven. And they absolutely wanted to make sure everyone knows despite normally keeping a low profile. This leads to the following questions:

a) What did they gain from killing Valten? Wasn't he more valuable to them alive as his existence could have thrown the Empire into a civil war? Or did he pose a threat that could not be allowed to live?

b) Why did they leave the clues? Was there any harm in doing so? Probably not. A few mysterious clues next to a corpse are not gonna convince something of the existence of a fairy tale race. Conversely, what did they gain from it? Well, they certainly showed the Empire what they're really capable of. This could fall into the category of psychological warfare. However it seems to weaken the Skaven more than helping them along by drawing attention to their threat, so it is all very mysterious unless there's some greater scheme going on here. Like for example sowing doubt and discord among the Empire leaders, as TheRatsInTheWalls theorized.

Conclusion: The Skaven have a very low motivation for killing Valten leaving clues.

2. It was someone else and he wanted to put the blame on the Skaven. This leads to the following questions:

a) Who has a reason to kill Valten? Well... a myriad people, Karl Franz not being the least suspect (but are you really think he would do such a thing?). However the one important reservation is that the culprit must actually know of the Skaven's existence.

b) So why the clues? This cuts most of the suspects from the list, though it's not really any help because we still don't know who's in the know. Furthermore, the perpetrator must believe framing the Skaven is a convincing and viable tactic. Which I think it's not. For the reasons that Skaven never leave clues and most people don't believe in them to begin with. Seriously there's so many enemies; surely the killer could have thought of a more obvious choice. For example the sigil of a rival faction. The Skaven thing is not a version you can sell to the general public. It is only a good tactic if it is intended as a message to someone special who knows the meaning. Who could be so special? Karl Franz or Huss maybe; the rest won't care.

Conclusion: The Empire has several reasons to remove Valten, but they have little motivation to put the blame on the Skaven of all 'people'.


So what does all this amount to? The truth seems to slip through my fingers once again...


I like playing Sherlock Holmes in my free time...

[ryng_sting]

A Skaven book from BL confirmed Sniktch did it, despite the fact it made little sense for him to do so: Skaven don't leave clues, and certainly don't kill to PREVENT a major crisis. In either case the SoC has been retconned, and that includes Valten.

One could counter that, I suppose, by pointing out that Grimgor acted massively out of character too. Him sparing Archaon was a little like Arbaal the Undefeated declaring to all and sundry that he likes wearing his Mother's clothes 'cos it makes him feel pretty.

[Ultimate Life Form]

A Skaven book from BL confirmed Sniktch did it

Oh, since it's in Black Library it must be true, right?

Another important thing to consider is for Sniktch to go after someone they must REALLY want to see him dead. According to the Skaven book, the Council holds a list with people who are marked for death, on top of which are the names of all the world's top leaders. They're all there. Karl Franz, Leonceur, Malekith, Ariel, Mannfred von Carstein, Lord Mazdamundi, Settra, you name them, they got them (though the exact order would be interesting). However the reason they're still alive and kicking is because the Council are far too busy having Sniktch remove internal rivals. So just in this case they made an exception because they absolutely wanted Valten dead? Really? Because he's more important than Karl Franz? Well, go figure...

[woodster17]

Oh, since it's in Black Library it must be true, right?

It makes it a lot more likely to be true than us simply guessing here about a dozen different reasons and outcomes, don't be such a skeptic! BL is full of writers that were part of the games development team at the time, they obviously have a much better clue than we do as they invented the fluff. I wouldn't say the events of SoC got retconned, more like eradicated unfortunately (from my point of view).

I find it kind of funny that there is this dread of Deathmaster Sniktch. In every BL book or piece of extended fluff that i've read the Skaven tend to fail in these kind of plots owing to extreme incompetence or the inconceivable cowardice of the assassin if the victim does anything other than lie there and wait to be stabbed through the heart by a poisonous blade. Makes it hard for me to believe they would ever bother attempting to kill off any of those rulers you mention, the rats would just flee if they saw the target guarded by any half fearsome troops.

Edit: It also irks me a little (particularly in the Thanquol books) to cast every Skaven as a bumbling idiot. Can't really take them seriously when they are just an idiotic rabble as opposed to terrifying intelligent monsters in the dark.

[Ultimate Life Form]

As far as I know Sniktch has never been described as an idiot; he's pretty badass. The same goes for the Council of the Thirteen and the Grey Seers whom I found more scary than most other things. Wouldn't want to run into one of these guys in a dark corner of the street at night.

As for Thanquol: yes he's an idiot but he enjoys the blessing of the Horned Rat which is why they allow him to live. You'll have to put up with it, Skaven are largely a comic relief race much like O&G except unlike Greenskins they can get fairly serious, too (in terms of both background and army tier).

[Urgat]

Nothing very funny about Grimgor. Well, there's nothing very anything about Grimgor, granted.