Did the skaven kill Valten?

[Athelassan]

Edit: It also irks me a little (particularly in the Thanquol books) to cast every Skaven as a bumbling idiot. Can't really take them seriously when they are just an idiotic rabble as opposed to terrifying intelligent monsters in the dark.

I thought the end of Thanquol's Doom was interesting in that regard. When the Skaven are led by a psychopathic nutter with no time for politicking and will just kill anybody he perceives as a threat, rather than the usual squabbling collection of backstabbers, they become a totally different, and much scarier, proposition. All the comedic incompetence is necessary, I think, because otherwise there's no believable reason (80s childrens' cartoon karma doesn't count) why the Skaven haven't already won.

a) Who has a reason to kill Valten? Well... a myriad people, Karl Franz not being the least suspect (but are you really think he would do such a thing?). However the one important reservation is that the culprit must actually know of the Skaven's existence.

I think its's a given that mot of the really top bods in the Empire know about the Skaven, especially given they've just concluded a war in which the Skaven played a prominent part. It is a cover-up, after all. It's pretty difficult to cover something up without getting an idea of what it actually is.

[Ultimate Life Form]

I think Grimgor is the epitome of Greenskin mentality - a joke in and on himself. Hate the character, pulled out of the hat for botched campaign, has no character or background, never fitted in with anything. Why wasn't he retconned? Though allegedly there are people who like him. Poor fellas.

Wow, this thread is veering wildly off topic now. But since we know the answer already...

[TheRatsInTheWalls]

Oh, since it's in Black Library it must be true, right?

Sadly, GW has said that the Black Library is cannon. If a book says Snikch did it, he did. I also like to ignore it, but that isn't quite an option.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Sadly, GW has said that the Black Library is cannon.

I think it's a Skaven conspiracy. That's what they want us to believe.

[Athelassan]

For some reason BL gets a lot of hate around here. To be perfectly honest, I find that most of the background in BL novels (with one or two egregious exceptions) is superior to that produced by the Studio these days. Doubly so for the Black Industries stuff for WFRP2, which never got the audience it deserved.

[Urgat]

Couldn't say. I've only read the Gotrek books (up to giantslayer) and Grudgebearer. I liked them all well enough.

[grumbaki]

Sadly, GW has said that the Black Library is cannon. If a book says Snikch did it, he did. I also like to ignore it, but that isn't quite an option.

So...Karl Franz hired Snikch then?

[warboss6820]

This all sounds very plausible but I thought that clan eshin assasins didnt hire thenselves out to non skaven. Perhapes a dark elf looking for some coin. Obviously it couldnt have a little noob dark elf assasin but isn't there a dark elf whos supposed to be the best in the world after snitch? I'm not a big fan of elves so I dont know but what if they encounted skaven then framed them?

[woodster17]

I'm on the Black Library's side, although I'm biased. As i've said before, it's cost me (shockingly thinking about it) about £800-£1000 to collect about 150 books. I like them; some are better than others but a lot are excellent. It makes sense aswell, since GW have turned away from background/fluff since SoC and are now concentrating solely on profit/rules they have to hand the reigns over to someone. As I mentioned last comment, a lot of former designers from when GW did enjoy running campaigns and conceiving fluff now write for BL. It's a natural progression.

For some reason BL gets a lot of hate around here. To be perfectly honest, I find that most of the background in BL novels (with one or two egregious exceptions) is superior to that produced by the Studio these days. Doubly so for the Black Industries stuff for WFRP2, which never got the audience it deserved.

Which egregious exceptions are you talking about? Would enjoy comparing notes. In general, with regard to Skaven, I find the incompetence acceptable. They seem to have gone too far with Thanquol however. He's a Grey Seer but acts like a complete ***** all the time. BL have cast him in the light of only being able to conjure up a spell in a position of complete dominance while high on an inordinate amount of warpstone which seems a little off base to me. Perhaps tone it down a little bit on the idiocy!

This all sounds very plausible but I thought that clan eshin assasins didnt hire thenselves out to non skaven. Perhapes a dark elf looking for some coin. Obviously it couldnt have a little noob dark elf assasin but isn't there a dark elf whos supposed to be the best in the world after snitch? I'm not a big fan of elves so I dont know but what if they encounted skaven then framed them?

While Clan Eshin hire themselves out to other clans who have enough coin they are also the right (weapon wielding) hand of the Council of 13. If they get an order they will carry it out; however powerful a clan is they can't disobey a direct edict from the council. Bad things might happen...

[warboss6820]

actully i was talking about snitch killing valten for karl franz

[woodster17]

actully i was talking about snitch killing valten for karl franz

That's what I was saying- it would have been a council member who was approached by the Empire who then ordered Snikch to do it- it's unlikely the approach would have been instigated by Clan Eshin. Since it would be the highest of high profile assassinations, the Council may have asked Snikch to do it personally.

[warboss6820]

But no one knew of the exsistance of skaven blight where the council is, right? So if karl franz would have mustered a massive army and attempted to destroy it right? Although I do see what your saying I just doubt it was the leader of the empire or else he would have attacked it long ago? But youve been on here much much longer then I have and you have problebly read more into it then I have.

[woodster17]

But no one knew of the exsistance of skaven blight where the council is, right? So if karl franz would have mustered a massive army and attempted to destroy it right? Although I do see what your saying I just doubt it was the leader of the empire or else he would have attacked it long ago? But youve been on here much much longer then I have and you have problebly read more into it then I have.

No you're right, nobody is supposed to know the exact location of Skavenblight in the Blighted Marshes. Karl Franz couldn't destroy it even if he tried for 2 reasons- firstly, it would be impossible, Skavenblight is, according to the fluff, teeming with millions of Skaven in the middle of a monstrous marsh. The army and baggage trains would get stuck and slaughtered before they got there. Secondly, Skavenblight is west of Tilea; Empire Troops would have to walk through the Border Princes to the South and then due west through Tilea to Skavenblight or cut through Bretonnia and go south and cross over the Irana Mountains. No nation would allow that big an army to march through their land. It's highly unlikely they would even get to Skavenblight, let alone be able to assault it.

Here- take a look at this map and see how far Skavenblight is from The Empire and Altdorf itself, the map is quality- http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/Warha...aps/index.html

[Athelassan]

Which egregious exceptions are you talking about? Would enjoy comparing notes.

Specifically, the Nagash trilogy, Ancient Blood and the Sigmar trilogy, off the top of my head. There might be a couple of older ones that I've buried.

In general, with regard to Skaven, I find the incompetence acceptable. They seem to have gone too far with Thanquol however. He's a Grey Seer but acts like a complete ***** all the time. BL have cast him in the light of only being able to conjure up a spell in a position of complete dominance while high on an inordinate amount of warpstone which seems a little off base to me. Perhaps tone it down a little bit on the idiocy!

Although I can find the "Disney villain incompetence" a little wearing at times, I don't mind Thanquol too much. He's pretty much continued in the same vein as William King started with when the Skaven were first fleshed out; I just think perhaps he suffers from overexposure and needs to take a bit of a break.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Yeah, especially since we know Thanquol can never win it's kind of futile.

[woodster17]

Although I can find the "Disney villain incompetence" a little wearing at times, I don't mind Thanquol too much. He's pretty much continued in the same vein as William King started with when the Skaven were first fleshed out; I just think perhaps he suffers from overexposure and needs to take a bit of a break.

Even with the William King books he had the ability to cast horrendously powerful spells when he put his mind to it. In the new Thanquol books it seems like whenever the enemies turn up he acts like a particularly timid Skavenslave and forgets all about his potent sorcerous ability unless he shoves warpstone snuff up his nose. Doesn't fit with the menacing Grey Seer attitude that he couldportray at times.

[Urgat]

Even with the William King books he had the ability to cast horrendously powerful spells when he put his mind to it.

Yeah. He did manhandle the Spirit of Grugnir all by himself with that giant magic hand spell. It's not like he's powerless, he should be able to achieve things from times to times...

[warboss6820]

@woodster whoa I never even though of that. *tips hat*

[Memnos]

I miss Valten as a young lad. For some reason, he grew six feet of beard in a single year. I don't know how it happened, but the young Valten was a brilliant model.

[Athelassan]

I didn't like the young Valten model, to be honest. It was a good sculpt, but looked far too much like Fabio. Adult Valten looked like someone to be taken seriously.