The Outcast Dead

[Sqallum]

Hi. I am thinking of buying this book. Only thing is, there has been plenty of bad remarks about it, about McNeil mucking up the Prospero/Istvaan timeline. I am also interested in the 'final secret that can change the face of the war.'

Could someone please give me a summary of the plot (with spoilers) and info about the Prospero/Istvaan timeline?

Thank you.

[Steam_Giant]

I have the audio book and Im finding it very confusing. Im only 1/3 of the way through, despite wanting to get into it.

I would find a summary useful too.

[Antreus]

The timeline muck up is deliberate, to be revealed why in later books. As far as I can recall there wasn't really any huge revelation, more of a damp sguib (or is that squig?). I think (and I could be wrong here) that most people's issues with the novel were to do with structure and pacing. They certainly were from my point of view. Good Terra info though.

[Animal310]

The timeline muck up is deliberate, to be revealed why in later books.

Can you back this statement up at all?

[MiyamatoMusashi]

Can you back this statement up at all?

Quite. Wrong is just wrong. It contradicts every other HH book that mentions those events at all (not to mention everything else that came before the HH series) and not only does the TOD timeline makes no sense, but even if it were that way, it makes everyone involved look like an absolute drooling idiot.

I really hope they don't attempt to explain it away later, and instead pretend like it never happened. That's certainly what I'll be doing.

[Havarel]

It was stated by Graham McNeill himself at Black Library live that it was deliberate and will be addressed in future books.

[Londinium]

Quite. Wrong is just wrong. It contradicts every other HH book that mentions those events at all (not to mention everything else that came before the HH series) and not only does the TOD timeline makes no sense, but even if it were that way, it makes everyone involved look like an absolute drooling idiot.

I really hope they don't attempt to explain it away later, and instead pretend like it never happened. That's certainly what I'll be doing.

It'll just be explained away by the old 'the warp is fickle and strange and messes up time differently for different people in different places and is entirely unreliable' fluff line and that it was meant to emphasise this nature of the warp. Which while totally 100% correct in terms of in universe logic, doesn't explain why an author (thankfully free of the corrupting influences of warp travel in our twee little universe) changed something which has thoroughly ballsed up Magnus' story and other plot lines.

[Ragnarfan_12]

the explanatoion would seriously piss me off .... and i think the big revealtion was kinda explaining why the emperor acted why he did he knew what he had to do and it was to pretty much die...

[stormblade]

The time 'muck up' is too great not to be deliberate.
Still a good book though.

[MiyamatoMusashi]

It'll just be explained away by the old 'the warp is fickle and strange and messes up time differently for different people in different places and is entirely unreliable' fluff line and that it was meant to emphasise this nature of the warp. Which while totally 100% correct in terms of in universe logic, doesn't explain why an author (thankfully free of the corrupting influences of warp travel in our twee little universe) changed something which has thoroughly ballsed up Magnus' story and other plot lines.

Exactly. Even in Fear To Tread, the newest novel, there is

a squad of Space Wolves who received direct and personal orders from Malcador the Sigillite to go and "watch over" Sanguinius, because Magnus had just broken the decree and the Emperor decided it would be a good idea to keep an eye on all the Primarchs.

None of those Space Wolves - despite being in direct communication with Terra - had any idea whatsoever that Horus had turned traitor, along with seven other Legions, and that Ferrus Manus was dead. Yet according to TOD, all that happened before Magnus broke the decree. So we are expected to believe that Malcador the Sigillite's biggest priority was to watch over Sanguinius - not, for example, warn him that Horus had turned traitor, and therefore following Horus' orders might be a bad idea. We have to believe that nobody on Terra, who had been in direct contact with those Space Wolves, after Magnus' mistake, which itself was apparently after the Dropsite Massacre, thought it worth mentioning to those Space Wolves that Horus (and Fulgrim, and Perturabo, and Curze, and Angron, and Mortarion, and Lorgar, and Alpharious) was a traitor.

That cannot possibly be explained by "the warp did it... it did funny things with time". Because there's a direct line of communication. It's inconceivable... no matter how "deliberate" they claim the mistake to be.

(And that's just from one book. There are several others proving the TOD timeline wrong, in black and white. There's no getting out of it).

[Animal310]

It was stated by Graham McNeill himself at Black Library live that it was deliberate and will be addressed in future books.

That just makes it worse. It makes no sense no matter how they try and clean it up. If that was the 'plan' all along then its a seriously flawed one. Why confuse, piss off and annoy a large portion on the fans of the series for such a big change in the established timeline and then just leave that change to "be addressed in future books". Complete crap on every level.

[ChrisMurray]

Before this thread turns into another debate on whether it was done on purpose or not, there is already a thread discussing this that has a lot of detail in it, including the opinion of ADB.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...spero-s-Razing

[stormblade]

That just makes it worse. It makes no sense no matter how they try and clean it up. If that was the 'plan' all along then its a seriously flawed one. Why confuse, piss off and annoy a large portion on the fans of the series for such a big change in the established timeline and then just leave that change to "be addressed in future books". Complete crap on every level.

That's how stuff usually go, just look at the codices.

[Londinium]

Before this thread turns into another debate on whether it was done on purpose or not, there is already a thread discussing this that has a lot of detail in it, including the opinion of ADB.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...spero-s-Razing

Don't get me wrong, I love ADB to bits and the way he interacts with the community online but he's just doing what I said. If there was a mistake then it's incredibly easy to deploy that excuse and handwave it all away and all is good. If there wasn't a mistake and it was intended, as he's saying, there was absolutely no need for McNeill to alter the timeline in that way because it's screwed things up and fundamentally ruined a massive part of Magnus' fall. I understand that the BL authors and the fluff lords at GW (Merritt et al) can do whatever they want with the story and certain things have been changed to better mesh with the greater story now being told but the timeline 'error' was a massive mess up, whether planned or accident and all for no positive results.

You can see how changing that timeline changing is reverberating elsewhere and screwing things up even more from what MiyamotoMusahi said in his last post about Fear to Tread. It's probably the biggest screw up since Fulgrim being possessed and even that didn't do too much damage, just annoyed some old veterans who preferred the old way of Fulgrim falling. Most of the Horus Heresy changes have been beneficial to the fluff such as the Alpha Legion stuff (now that Legion's ending has been expanded upon) but they fell flat on their faces with the TOD timeline change.

[Xisor]

For what it's worth, to me, the only sensible depiction of things is this:

- Magnus' message started breaking everything on Terra long before the scene replicated in both TOD & ATS. (E.g. that Leman Russ is sent to Prospero well in advance of any of the events of TOD.)
- The Russ/Horus communication in the opening trilogy is just a mistake or piece which was forgotten.
- The background laid down in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions isn't being adhered to. (Note: Deliverance Lost and such change Corax's return to Terra vs what's in HH:CV.)

As for the book itself, TOD is just too damn variable. Recently re-read it, it suffers from a lot of bizarre decisions. On the otherhand, sections of it are an utter delight. Unlike Battle for the Abyss, where some of the mistakes are a bit... clearer (Ultramarines & Word Bearers characters as presented are outright dull & boring), TOD suffers in a variety of ways: it has no business being a bad book. In principle, it's excellent. In execution, not so great.