Strength of the Red Corsairs?

[Grimmeth]

Hurons forces steal Gene Seed from fallen Space Marines that they fight against also, and The Corpsemaster (Chief Apothecary - can't remember his actual name) and Armenneus Valthex (Master of the Forge) have been stated as finding ways to speed up Space Marine growth (see Imperial Armour: Badab War and The Gildar Rift).
Current Codex Chaos Space Marines also states that the Inquisition are incredibly concerned over the number of Space Marines that have fallen traitor and joined Huron.

Add to that smaller Caos Warbands in the area who have joined under his banner (his survival and 'Rebirth' from Lufgt Huron to Huron Blackheart was seen as a miracle (Codex Chaos Space Marines again) so is likely to have brought some of the more pious Chaos Worshippers to come join his forces.) and it is quite possible that Huron has indeed built a force around 100,000 strong.

[Damien 1427]

The Words Bearers have a vocation and mission to convert everyone to Chas worship an undermine the Imperium.

Childish I know, but I just have a vision of companies of Word Bearers singing Snooker Loopy and Rabbit as they swarm over Imperial defenders. Also, now any and all Word Bearers sound like Cockneys to me. Thanks, MvS.

For what it's worth, I would assume Huron would "only" have around 10,000 or so Astartes to call on. In any case, AndrewGPaul is right to remind us that it's only rumoured Huron has an army that big. It's not set in stone, at least, not yet.

[m1acca1551]

He may have the ability to call on a legion size force of marines but his own private army of red corsairs wouldnt number that highly, but i guess at the end of the day no one even knows the true strengths of loyalist chapters... whos to say that chapters like da or bt dont number in the 10's of thousands if not greater.

[MvS]

Childish I know, but I just have a vision of companies of Word Bearers singing Snooker Loopy and Rabbit as they swarm over Imperial defenders. Also, now any and all Word Bearers sound like Cockneys to me. Thanks, MvS.

You're very welcome. And I need a new keyboard.

[LordLucan]

I assume Huron is more of a Dave convert then?

[Inquisitor Engel]

Which would have to mean he has mass quantities of gene-seed, stable recruiting population with minimal mutation and able to implant and 'grow' Space Marines far quicker than "modern" Space Marines... something I have a hard time believing.

In six months Variel had a number of Night Lords ready to go for Talos and that was simply from unwilling, captured slaves and not very much gene-seed. He's clearly one of the most talented Apothecaries outside of say, Fabius Bile (and a lot, lot more sane). Considering he was Chief Apothecary of the Red Corsairs for a long time prior, with a lot more gene-seed and resources flowing in, I'd say it's entirely possible he got things up and running in no time.

Don't forget traitor Space Marines don't go for the whole "ritualistic" side of induction, probably saving some considerable time in the process. No Scouts either, so you're training them as Astartes, rather than just as scouts and wasting potentially years you could have a power-armoured brute stomping pitiful humans.

Whilst I do not doubt he probably has thousands of Space Marines and undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of human slaves and menials, probably dozens of ships, having the strength of a full Space Marine Legion is stretching it I think. Considering how desperately he wanted to raid Vilamus for gene-seed, it seems unlikley.

Those with power often crave one thing only: More power.

Childish I know, but I just have a vision of companies of Word Bearers singing Snooker Loopy and Rabbit as they swarm over Imperial defenders. Also, now any and all Word Bearers sound like Cockneys to me. Thanks, MvS.

I have visions of Word Bearers in black slacks and ties, with short-sleeve white shirts and bicycle helmets.

For what it's worth, I would assume Huron would "only" have around 10,000 or so Astartes to call on. In any case, AndrewGPaul is right to remind us that it's only rumoured Huron has an army that big. It's not set in stone, at least, not yet.

10,000 Red Corsairs maybe, but it's entirely possible many times that number owe him debts he can call on. I think that's probably the big point. He's playing the long game.

[Gargantuan]

Well i highly doubt the numbers would be to high as abaddon hasnt really done anything overt to keep huron in his plsce which to me suggests that hurons numbers whilst strong arent exactly overly numerous. Abaddon isnt the type of chap to let some one gain enough power to potentially rival himself.

Abbadon can't mess with Huron, he's stuck in the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom almost half way across the galaxy.

[Craftworld]

It kind of makes me curious as to why Huron hasn't yet ascended to the rank of Daemon Prince. Unlike Abaddon, he doesn't seem the type to turn down immortality, and more power. And surely he's proven himself to the pantheon, given what he's accomplished for Chaos.

[Veteran Sergeant]

One would assume the rulebook was written after GW agreed that the Legions were 100,000+ strong, and not 10,000+ strong as they were previously. So going by that logic, we're looking at the Red Corsairs, if we take the rulebook at face value, having 100,000+ Red Corsairs, or around that mark. Which sounds ridiculous IMO.

The problem is, the 6E core rulebook still has the list of only 23 Ultramarines successors. It's a glaring fluff problem, and it doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page, lol. Codex: GK says just over 400 2nd Founding Chapters, the 6E rulebook is sticking with the 40 or so (don't remember the exact number). So who knows what info Forge World was working with.

I have to agree that 100,000+ Red Corsairs is ludicrous. Otherwise, Space Marines have a failure rate, even after the tighter restrictions and oversight of the Codex Astartes, that makes it somewhat hard to believe that they'd even bother continuing to make them, lol. But this is the result of a lack of cohesive editing vision at GW. If Space Marines are supposed to be so well conditioned and devoted, then Marines turning to Chaos should be considered something pretty significant (the Heresy was an utter shock, and was a result of weak Primarchs being seduced by the unknown. Modern Space Marines know what Chaos is, and are indoctrinated relentlessly against it). If you have hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines running around, it cheapens what the Chaos Marines are supposed to represent. Chaos is seven hundred and eighteen times cooler when the warband are groups of sneaky, bitter a-holes who continue to wage an endless war out of spite and hatred, instead of these absurdly large swarms of Imperium ending psychopaths.

[Sean_OBrien]

The problem is, the 6E core rulebook still has the list of only 23 Ultramarines successors. It's a glaring fluff problem, and it doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page, lol. Codex: GK says just over 400 2nd Founding Chapters, the 6E rulebook is sticking with the 40 or so (don't remember the exact number). So who knows what info Forge World was working with.

Since the target for Space Marines is 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines (think it was mentioned in one of the Index Astartes articles back when WD still had interesting stuff in it) - the 400 number makes a lot more sense than 40 or so for the 2nd Founding. Use attrition within the ranks of the larger chapters of the time (the remaining loyalists) and then run the 3rd and 4th Founding to make up for the losses (I forget the exact years - but I seem to recall them to be somewhat quickly after the 2nd Founding).

The other issue of course with the Red Corsairs simply being made up of rogue marines is that the last founding 26th (I think) was 300 or so years back. Since then several chapters have been wiped out due to GW fast/loose fluff writing, even more have been reduced to a shadow of a full chapter, and apparently almost as many have gone rogue (be interesting to see what the actual number of lost/rogue/neutered chapters is). I did a rough count and I think that they are down close to 60 chapters or so in the past hundred years or so.

Add in another 10,000 or so of just random Marines going off to take a vacation in with the Red Corsairs - something starts to fall apart with the fluff...especially since most of the foundings that are mentioned in detail generally don't contain that many chapters all at once to recover the losses.

[Rogue Star]

Considering how desperately he wanted to raid Vilamus for gene-seed, it seems unlikley.

Would not the success of that particular raid, be partly responsible for the swell in numbers of the Red Corsairs? I mean he had to use that gene-seed for something...

[Abaddon676]

IMO I always thought the Red Corsairs had like 10,000-20,000 actual Red Corsairs (most being renegades from various chapters that joined up). However at the same time I imagine that Huron is the ultimate power in the Maelstrom and would probably be able to push and bully around the other various warbands that live around there... kinda like how Abaddon can sorta bully and command the other Chaos Legions in the Eye (well ok, his is more out of respect I guess). But the renegades in the maelstrom are a different breed of Chaos Marines than the Traitor Legions (imo) as they are basically true renegades, just the greedy selfish marines who want power. The Legionnaires probably want that too but most of them originally had a goal, an ambition and even thought what they were doing was right (some still do! Word Bearers!).

But yeah thats my two cents, I havent read any Red Corsairs stories from Black Library - I'm thinking of getting Gildar Rift as its them vs Silver Skulls. I've been kinda getting into Red Corsairs and Black Legion and have a will to paint my chaos marines their colours. Can anyone reccomend a Red Corsairs book or short story btw?

[Thoth62]

It kind of makes me curious as to why Huron hasn't yet ascended to the rank of Daemon Prince. Unlike Abaddon, he doesn't seem the type to turn down immortality, and more power. And surely he's proven himself to the pantheon, given what he's accomplished for Chaos.

Yup. The man lost a war... Sounds like a little Abaddon wanna-be.

[MvS]

I think the phrase 'legion of old' could be a bit misleading. I doubt it has to mean an exact figure. It's more likely a testament to multiple thousands of Marines working in conjunction with non-Marine regiments. Also, I may be wrong but I seem to remember the Black Templars being compared to almost legion size (if they ever banded together in the same place at the same time), but there are only about 8 thousand of them.

I think the Corsairs have many more Marines than this, due in no small part to their geneseed raids and the fact that they harvest geneseed from every Marine, 'friend' and foe, that they kill, without really worrying about its provenance. Also the Red Corsairs probably don't spend as long with their recruitment process. They probably just pick hundreds of the strongest and most brutal youths from their heretical followers or from the slave pens, start the alteration process, hypno-indoctrinate them with tactical knowledge and 'fear the master' programming, and then train them constantly 'on the job'.

The sheer length of time for the Imperial Marines creation process seems to be because of the endless pursuit of perfection, biological, psychological and spiritual. I'm not convinced that the Red Corsairs would care much about how 'pure' the mind or spirit of their aspirants might be. Huron just wants as many ruthless and obedient super-soldiers as possible, he's not after warrior-saints.

Even so, 100, 000 Marines seems a stretch. Remember the quote was simply that he was rumoured to have a force similar to the Legions of old, and that's not only hazy in terms of numbers but I think also refers to the combined arms (Navy, Guard and Mechanicum support) of the old Legions.

[Lupe]

Also, I may be wrong but I seem to remember the Black Templars being compared to almost legion size (if they ever banded together in the same place at the same time), but there are only about 8 thousand of them.

You are correct on this one. However, the Black Templar codex predates the Raven's Flight audiobook by quite some time. Now, every material released by GW and BL from that audiobook onwards refers to the Great Crusade era Astartes Legions as being at least tens of thousands strong, instead of close to ten thousand strong. In order to make sense, BL suggests that every figure related to the size of Astartes Legions before that date should just be multiplied by ten.

Even if the idea of 80 thousand Black Templars at large across the Milky Way doesn't appeal to you (although you probably need to have your priorities reassessed, if that's the case ), 8 thousand would probably still be close to what the Thousand Sons had according to the new 'policy' on Legion strength...

[MooseOnTheLoose]

The question is, what Legion strength are we talking? The old days when the Ultramarines had 25,000 or so Marines, or the new fluff where they had 250,000? Seems like it leaves a drastic difference in what "Legion Strength" means. Legion strength as the old fluff has it, could be as few as 5000 or so, since the Ultramarines were always supposed to be more than twice as big as the next closest Legion.

Well guessing that since the Black Templars are close too "legion size in numbers" 8-12k would be following Huron.

Also at what point is "of old" at their birth? at their height? pre heresy? heresy? pre index?

[Nazguire]

Well guessing that since the Black Templars are close too "legion size in numbers" 8-12k would be following Huron.

Also at what point is "of old" at their birth? at their height? pre heresy? heresy? pre index?

I'd say at the height of their power, as in Ullanor era.

[KingDeath]

The problem is, the 6E core rulebook still has the list of only 23 Ultramarines successors. It's a glaring fluff problem, and it doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page, lol. Codex: GK says just over 400 2nd Founding Chapters, the 6E rulebook is sticking with the 40 or so (don't remember the exact number). So who knows what info Forge World was working with.

I have to agree that 100,000+ Red Corsairs is ludicrous. Otherwise, Space Marines have a failure rate, even after the tighter restrictions and oversight of the Codex Astartes, that makes it somewhat hard to believe that they'd even bother continuing to make them, lol. But this is the result of a lack of cohesive editing vision at GW. If Space Marines are supposed to be so well conditioned and devoted, then Marines turning to Chaos should be considered something pretty significant (the Heresy was an utter shock, and was a result of weak Primarchs being seduced by the unknown. Modern Space Marines know what Chaos is, and are indoctrinated relentlessly against it). If you have hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines running around, it cheapens what the Chaos Marines are supposed to represent. Chaos is seven hundred and eighteen times cooler when the warband are groups of sneaky, bitter a-holes who continue to wage an endless war out of spite and hatred, instead of these absurdly large swarms of Imperium ending psychopaths.

With the idiotic spessmuhreen **** we get from more than a few Black Library novels and other GW publications, hundreds of thousands of traitormarines are basicaly a necessity just to
avoid entire legions going extinct because sergeant Awesome McAwesomepants of the Awesomemarines had a particularly awesome day killing hundreds of traitors with his bare hands.

[Lord Damocles]

The problem is, the 6E core rulebook still has the list of only 23 Ultramarines successors. It's a glaring fluff problem, and it doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page, lol. Codex: GK says just over 400 2nd Founding Chapters, the 6E rulebook is sticking with the 40 or so (don't remember the exact number). So who knows what info Forge World was working with.

The rulebook presents an in-universe source, which is titled as being unreliable ('Apocrypha').

If we can't see the difference between that and the omniscient text in Codex: Grey Knights, then we're really in no position to be throwing stones...

[Veteran Sergeant]

It's one argument, but honestly, still using the two apocryphas reeks more of lazy copy/paste editing than anything else. That bit of flavor text is nearly 20 years old. You're welcome to disagree, but just how unreliable is this thing? It lists roughly 50 successors. That means 350 of them are lost? Second Founding chapters? And nobody remembers them? Haha.

Yeah, no. That's a bit too much, even for me to believe. What is more likely to believe is that the GW staff just had that piece in their old section and just left it in. And nobody in the editing process went "Wait, the newer Heresy books say the Ultramarines had like 250,000 guys, not 25,000". And stop, before you even start. Yes, I know that it's possible. I'm just saying that personally I feel it's lazy editing, and I'm not interested in debating it again because nobody convinced me last time that 350 Second Founding Chapters could be forgotten, and you're not going to be able to do it by derailing a second thread. Though I'm sure there will be somebody who wants to do it anyway.