Should Eldar Grav Tanks have Flyer mode?

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Can of worms time!

Given that the Valk and Vendetta now have the option to be treated as Flyers, is there any reason that Eldar grav tanks shouldn't get in on the act too?

My understanding of how grav tanks function suggests that they can achieve sufficient altitude to be considered fliers for the purposes of a 40k game played on a 6' by 4' board. The crew are also fully sealed from the external environment.

Maybe GW had this in mind and it's why our skimmers are currently so easy to hit in assault. But then why would they have missed the opportunity to reclassify our skimmers as Flyer (Hover) in the new rulebook?

Of course there's also the possibility that it would be game breaking...

I suspect that for various reasons the answer is 'no' but I thought it was worthy of discussion.

Discuss.

[Rick Blaine]

They deserve it more than the Guard's gunships, that's for sure.

[Silentexile]

There's already an example of Eldar tanks flying via the Falcon Cloudstrike squadron formation, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

[brionl]

There's already an example of Eldar tanks flying via the Falcon Cloudstrike squadron formation, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

That's not flying, that's falling, with style.

[Vaktathi]

Should Eldar hovertanks get Flyer rules? Personally? I'd say no, they are hovertanks capable essentially of getting themselves to and from orbit or crossing long distances but aren't really aircraft the same way an actual Flyer is. They can get themselves up to altitude and speed, but aren't really designed to perform combat roles like that.

Giving them the ability to Deep Strike or the like to represent controlled descent from orbit or something would be fine however.

They deserve it more than the Guard's gunships, that's for sure.

O_o

While I can understand the fluff perspective of Eldar hovertanks utilizing flyer rules, I fail to see where hovertanks that are capable of flight (primarily for long range cruise/transport purposes) "deserve" it more than actual purpose designed aircraft.

Eldar Hovertanks don't fly like aircraft, at least from my readings of Eldar fluff, they can "fly" but primarily just to get from point A to point B over long distances, they are hovertanks first and foremost however, unlike something like a Valkyrie which is purely an aircraft that was hamfisted in as a skimmer for half an edition because the core rules didn't cover aircraft.

[Rick Blaine]

a Valkyrie which is purely an aircraft that was hamfisted in as a skimmer for half an edition because the core rules didn't cover aircraft.

Valkyries are just fine being Skimmers, just like other ground attack gunships ala Hammerhead or even Land Speeders. The have absolutely no business being in the same category as supersonic interceptors, especially with their tank armour and ridiculous points cost. It's ridiculous that a staggeringly underpriced gunship is the best dogfighter in the game.

[Formerly Wu]

Valkyries are just fine being Skimmers, just like other ground attack gunships ala Hammerhead or even Land Speeders.

Take anyone who doesn't know much about 40k and point at a Valkyrie. They're going to call it a plane. It's a plane. If your game has planes, and the Valkyrie doesn't count as a plane, something is wrong.

The have absolutely no business being in the same category as supersonic interceptors, especially with their tank armour and ridiculous points cost. It's ridiculous that a staggeringly underpriced gunship is the best dogfighter in the game.

House Special Rule: Gunship. Any flyer with the Gunship special rule cannot utilize Skyfire unless specifically allowed.
House Errata: Valkyries, Vultures, and Vendettas all have the Gunship special rule.

Boom. Simple, effective, and prevents asinine things like the plane not being a plane.

[Rick Blaine]

House Special Rule: Gunship. Any flyer with the Gunship special rule cannot utilize Skyfire unless specifically allowed.
House Errata: Valkyries, Vultures, and Vendettas all have the Gunship special rule.

Boom. Simple, effective, and prevents asinine things like the plane not being a plane.

This would be a decent start.

[Azzy]

House Special Rule: Gunship. Any flyer with the Gunship special rule cannot utilize Skyfire unless specifically allowed.
House Errata: Valkyries, Vultures, and Vendettas all have the Gunship special rule.

Boom. Simple, effective, and prevents asinine things like the plane not being a plane.

I like it. I wish GW had the foresight to have done this.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

Valkyries are just fine being Skimmers, just like other ground attack gunships ala Hammerhead or even Land Speeders. The have absolutely no business being in the same category as supersonic interceptors, especially with their tank armour and ridiculous points cost. It's ridiculous that a staggeringly underpriced gunship is the best dogfighter in the game.

Valks are indeed flyers but the lack of granularity in the flyers rules means there is no difference between different craft regarding speeds and so on. This means that Eldar craft (who will hopefully all get vector dancer) have no advantage, wheras in background terms and AI (the game) it is quite clear that one on one Eldar craft are far superior. Its a shame this isnt represented in the rules.

[Vaktathi]

Valkyries are just fine being Skimmers, just like other ground attack gunships ala Hammerhead or even Land Speeders. The have absolutely no business being in the same category as supersonic interceptors, especially with their tank armour and ridiculous points cost. It's ridiculous that a staggeringly underpriced gunship is the best dogfighter in the game.

Hammerheads are not aircraft, they are ground effect vehicles, they don't fly through the clouds or anything like. Valkyries are aircraft designed for aerial maneuvers, not ground vehicles that are built to avoid terrain obstacles by floating over them.

The IG skimmers using flyer rules isn't an issue, that's what they always have been and how FW orginally designed them. GW's core design studio chose to hamfist them in as Skimmers with a higher AV (they *were* AV11 under FW rules, GW made them AV12, and then made all flyers pretty much AV11/12 instead of FW's original 10 with 11 being the exception) and then go back and make them flyers again.

As for being interceptors, again, that's an issue with how GW chose to implement FW's flyer rules, originally they needed AA designation on their weapons to shoot at other flyers effectively just like ground weapons. GW chose to drop that.

It's an issue with the Valks being hamfisted in in the first place, the core flyer rules not being well ported over, and then Valks then being famfisted back into the poorly ported flyer rules.

Bear in mind that the Flyer rules aren't there simply to portray F-22 interceptor style aircraft, they are there to portray *aircraft* in general, be they HIND clones, strategic bombers, interceptors, A-10 style ground attack aircraft, etc.

Eldar hovertanks don't really equate to those, Valkyries do.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Bear in mind that the Flyer rules aren't there simply to portray F-22 interceptor style aircraft, they are there to portray *aircraft* in general, be they HIND clones, strategic bombers, interceptors, A-10 style ground attack aircraft, etc.

Eldar hovertanks don't really equate to those, Valkyries do.

I generally agree with your assessment over the course of the thread.

However, I think others have made valid points about Guard gunships. They get the vest of both worlds with no significant drawbacks.

They shouldn't be as manouevrable on the ground as grav vehicles or as nimble in the air as fighter aircraft. For example, I think Grav Tanks would be far better at taking advantage of terrain compared to a gunship.

Rather than the Flyer (Hover) rule, I would like to have seen dedicated rules for gunships which would basically be a half way house rather simply providing all the advantages of both modes.

[Radium]

Maybe Star Engines can give a tank the Flyer type now?

[Dwane Diblie]

Due to the fact that some of the anty-air units (Skyfire) also effect skimmers and there is currently no reason to, I am going to assume that maybe falcons will only beable to be Snap Shot when moving a curten speed like Flat Out or it will be an upgrade for them. But standard... I don't think so. Fluff wise, it is highly possable. I am hoping something like this will be the new Star Engenes.

[Hendarion]

Unlike Imperial ones they are able to short-time space-flights and are way faster according to Forgeworld numbers (as fast as or even faster than sound), so basically... yea. Game-wise I'd still prefer them not to be flyers, because I think it's game-breaking - same as Imperial ones are.
I like the idea of Star-Engines to enable flyer-mode though, since you pay for it.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

Unlike Imperial ones they are able to short-time space-flights and are way faster according to Forgeworld numbers (as fast as or even faster than sound), so basically... yea. Game-wise I'd still prefer them not to be flyers, because I think it's game-breaking - same as Imperial ones are.
I like the idea of Star-Engines to enable flyer-mode though, since you pay for it.

You're spot on Hendarion, their listed speeds are greater.
I would like to see them have it as they really are flyers, even going back to the issue of WD when they were released, which mentioned their flying ability.

[TheDoctor]

Can of worms time!

Given that the Valk and Vendetta now have the option to be treated as Flyers, is there any reason that Eldar grav tanks shouldn't get in on the act too?

My understanding of how grav tanks function suggests that they can achieve sufficient altitude to be considered fliers for the purposes of a 40k game played on a 6' by 4' board. The crew are also fully sealed from the external environment.

Maybe GW had this in mind and it's why our skimmers are currently so easy to hit in assault. But then why would they have missed the opportunity to reclassify our skimmers as Flyer (Hover) in the new rulebook?

Of course there's also the possibility that it would be game breaking...

I suspect that for various reasons the answer is 'no' but I thought it was worthy of discussion.

Discuss.

Guard's AV 12 gunships are perfectly capable of shooting down my supersonic interceptors without even trying, I would say yes. (Seriously, ******* Vultures and their twin linked Heavy 20 skyfire shooting at a Nightwing)

[Spell_of_Destruction]

A dedicated transport that is also a flyer is what I thought might be game breaking. I think that skyfire will become increasingly available though as the edition progresses.

I think it could be a really cool style of play for Eldar for transports to enter the table as flyers. I really like the Star Engines idea too.

[Hendarion]

A dedicated transport that is also a flyer is what I thought might be game breaking.

Still, the Necrons have one.
I'd be happy enough with Eldar skimmers deep striking though.

it would be extremely broken if your whole army is flyers

Yea, exactly as IG.

[Chief Librarian Zypher]

Eldar have their own variety of flyers, which will/should be in the upcoming Aeronautica book at the end of the month. your basic grav-tank shouldn't have flying stock and if it is/becomes a purchasable upgrade, it should be expensive. it would be extremely broken if your whole army is flyers