TBH i love being able to reroll- i mistrust dice so much that anything that lets me reroll anything is good for my health. Keep SoA as it is!
TBH i love being able to reroll- i mistrust dice so much that anything that lets me reroll anything is good for my health. Keep SoA as it is!
Yeah I agree, I feel so much safer attacking with an army that rerolls hits. One bad dice roll and you still get the chance to rectify it.
except its ethernal hatred, which is what dark elfs have (well when they face high elves). Not very creative giving them a spiced up version of the same special rule as the in all other ways most similar army already has.
But what are we discussing here? How do you like throwing twice your dice or rumours and updates HE need?
SoA is a bad rule. It is not backgroundish (an archer equally as fast as a SwordMaster? Are we joking?), and it makes expensive the whole army, even units that do not need that rule. It should exist ONLY for SM (that is background).
If an archer's function is to shoot, it is completely useless that you pay him a CC rule. As useless as giving spearmen 10 BS and thus paying for it. So, if HE need an army rule that "defines" them as an army, I'd say:
Elven weaponry: old weaponry that is passed in a lineage from ancestors time blablabla. Spearmen and LSG's spears and all bow shoots in the army are considered piercing attacks. Also, spearmen and LSG may have access to heavy armour. Elite infantries have special elven heavy armours that give them 4+AS.
Elven accuracy: All elven shoots (even RBT) ignore distance modifiers when shooting.
Martial prowess: LSG and spearmen, aside of attacking with one additional row with their spears, may profit from parry save rule.
Then SH and ER both go to core units. And then you have improved and made useful HE core units.
Spearmen: AS 5+, piercing attacks, parry save. 8 points. Heavy armour +1 point.
Archers: 9 points. No distance modifiers, piercing shooting attacks. Light armour +1 point.
Ellyrion Reavers: 15 points. Spear +1 point, bow +2 points (with piercing attacks and no distance nor moving modifiers).
LSG: 12 points, piercing attacks, no distance modifiers, no movement modifiers (elite seafare unit), 5+AS, parry save, piercing attacks both shooting and CC. Heavy armour +1 point.
SH: 17 points AS4+, lances. Heavy armour +1 point, bards +2 points.
NO SoA for any of this units. Each command group option +10 points; SH and LSG may have a magic banner up to 25 points.
Like this you have balanced expensive core units, useful in their roles but not OP.
You applied common sense and logics to your idea of how the HE should work... It wont happen :P.Originally Posted by Nopuiiidorl
Of all what you have said i would only not give LSG the heavy armour, since they are mariner troops and it is very dangerous to wear such armour while on a ship, and with all the rules given to them they should go into the specials cathegory. But other than that it would be a dream if GW did something like what you posted =).
Of course you do. Rerolls are better than +2 ws. That's the main problem with rerolls (at least on high strength models). They are just such a powerful upgrade.
Plus the fact that the slowest HE will never strike slower than the fastest creature from any other race. The worst he can do is strike simultaneously. From a fluff point of view, this is just silly. I don't think HE need it and the developers could come up with a much more fun army wide rule for what defines the Asur instead of 'Faster than a Bloodthirster!'...
Going by models, I think both DE and HE spearelves could justify heavy armour (or at least the option) which would allow them to be a little more resilient and expensive to reduce either being too numerous on the battlefield (assuming both will move to a cost higher than empire state troops when they are redone).
Druchii.net for all your Dark Elf needs
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw
∞+1 (just because I can).
Curses! You found me!
HE don't need anything added to the special section, as there's so much competition there already.
No, what they need is reavers and silver helms moved to core. And some elite troops moved to rare instead of what we have since 6th edition (RBTs and eagles).
EDIT: actually in 6th we still had WL and PG in rare, as it had been ever before. But RBTs in the moment they lost the ability to multi shot ignoring armour saves (in 6th ed lost it) shouldnt have been rare anymore.
Last edited by Miredorf; 01-08-2012 at 23:13.
I have no objection to moving things out of special, and silver helms/ER are an obvious choice.
I have no objection to moving things out of special, and silver helms/ER are sensible choices.
yup. In all truth, the more i think about it the more i dislike Troke's choices with 7th edition.
PS: definitely the golden book for HE was its 5th edition one
What there should be is more reason for archers to have CC rules. Bat Swarms are a perfect example - throw 'em at a ranged unit with no close combat capabilities and that unit has been effectively neutralized forever and ever until the end of time. Not that ranged units should match the capabilities of close combat units, but it SHOULD be a way to help differentiate similar ranged units between armies without jumping straight to "unit A shoots better, and then when unit B is released, it has to shoot even better". Kossars and the Hellcannon are extreme examples. I know that High Elves have the sea guard, but that's no reason why archers should be utterly pants in close combat.
Basically, I would expect high elf archers to be less inconvenienced by Bat Swarms/Warhounds/etc than most other ranged units with longbows and no armor. ASF probably isn't the right way to represent it, and archers certainly shouldn't pay the same premium price as swordmasters for it, but yeah. Some close combat ability on ranged units is justified. There just needs to be more reasons to...you know... justify it. More cheap flying swarms or units that come in from random table edges. Dwellers-like spells that test against WS (as in described as summoning something to attack the enemy, not "destroy entire units with ease").
I hope some of that sleep-deprived rambling makes sense.
"Kaylee, find that kid who's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus. We need a hood ornament."
-Captain Malcom Reynolds, Serenity outtakes
"You always win by running away."
-Captain Justy Ueki Tylor
What do you have a profile for, then? Archers with no special CC advantage would still have I5 WS4 and L8, so they may still experience less problems in CC than other armies shooters.
When you train a warrior to shoot, does he develop CC skills? So, if HE archers have been training 209482309832 years their archery, why the hell they are such bad shooters and that "good" fighters? And I am putting aside the fact that they are T3 no AS troop, so they will never last long in CC. If you shoot better, no bat swarms arrive. Or, at least, they arrive weakened. That should be the point of a shooting unit, killing before something arrives, not punching something that arrived because they do not know how to hold a bow. Don't know if you get me.
Someone on a previous page mentioned that the rules should better reflect the defensive nature of the HE, such as counting their armor as 1 higher than it should be, giving spearmen a parry save, etc. I think this would fit the fluff, and help make them a little more survivable.
Given the fact that elves are more skilled and faster than most other races, something like an army wide 6+ parry save might work to represent their defensive nature, though I'm not sure if this is a little overpowered.
Considering it would be strictly the elves themselves, parry only works in close combat, and certain circumstances can negate parry, no, I don't think it would be overpowered. It would certainly be more flavorful.
"Hah! "Old" Elgi weapons passed through the ages, they'd last barely more than twenty generations!"
But seriously, when you have a race such as Dwarfs renowned for a) their craftmanship and b) their love of tradition, if anyone were to have a fitting fluffy rule about better gear, should it not be them? I know GW make seemingly absurd army elements at times, but this would have many a staunch Dawi player up in arms, or cause an arms race making the eventual Dwarf equivalent better and likely OP.
I like the idea of keeping the Elves a truly elite army, small, expensive units that are an "Order" equivalent of WoC, or similar. This game needs armies that favour those who enjoy taking their time to paint. Elves are very much a painting challenge with all the mages, embroidery and gems. Thinking wider of the game rules, "what do people enjoy playing", at least one of those categories should be a points competitive, small force of beautifully painted minis.
Give them rules to keep their small numbers high enough that should they hit CC, they can handle being up against much larger units, but to not decimate the strength of the opposing unit in one turn (obv).
Cause the very elven definition of a noble is someone with one of the weapons Caledor crafter for aenarion's followers? How many 7.000 years old weapons do the dwarfs have? That said i don't agree with it being in the rules, those weapons are already in the magic items section
"Pah! Elgi arrogance! Are 7,000 year old mage wrought items any comparison to 15,000 year old god-wrought items?! Elgi claims of craftsmanship is akin to a youngling's finger painting compared to a masterwork!"
OOC
If you read more than Elf fluff, there's plenty, millennia older than that too, depending on when Grungni first started to forge - up to 15,000 years according to the Imperial Calendar. Most Holds have heirlooms dating back to the Ancestors, or at least make claims to that effect. The Anvils of Doom are some of the most ancient artifacts which are likely to have been made around that time to protect each new hold as it was constructed. Thorgrim's Throne was made by Grungni himself, not all that many god-wrought items in Warhammer... Other than Gotrek's axe being one of Grimnir's ofc...
Unfortunately for Dwarf players, but fortunately for everyone else, many of the Dwarf items aren't allowed in the AB as their described abilities would win games on their own. Elves can keep their trinkets in the magic items section for the sake of balance
I'll stop derailing.
As much as the Dwarf in me wants to pooh pooh Elves at every given opportunity, they're by far and away one of the core races within Warhammer fluff, deserve a decent AB and should be the renowned warriors their fluff makes them out to be. Up close and personal with Chosen shouldn't be a huge issue for their elites.
@TheDungen, I'm fairly sure that Dark Elves would appreciate having Speed of Asuryan rather than Hatred.
Posting Permissions
