Food Chain - Combat Lords

[Doommasters]

Interested to see where people think the various combat lords should stack up in terms of most powerful to least powerful.

Now obviously different characters have different; purposes, equipment and points costs. This makes it difficult to state with aboslute clarity where one should fall on the scale, therefore please take off you blue hat and put on your yellow one for this thread. Removing different equipment, abilities and points costs from the equation (assume best/most cost effective gear) can we focus on pure combat ability; challenges, monsters and rank and file troops. Where do you think the various combat lords from warhammer fantasy armies should tier againts each other for the three criteria above?
Also please exclude special characters

In theory there should be a list for challenges, monster killing and rank and file slaughtering.


Edit: spelling

[papabearshane]

Removing equipment, abilities and points costs from the equation. They all are about the same for T4 and all about the Same for T5 with Deamons and Minotaurs better then most and Old Bloods and vamp lords right behind them.

With a comparison like this its almost pointless as they are just stats and not the whole character.

[Doommasters]

Removing equipment, abilities and points costs from the equation. They all are about the same for T4 and all about the Same for T5 with Deamons and Minotaurs better then most and Old Bloods and vamp lords right behind them.

With a comparison like this its almost pointless as they are just stats and not the whole character.

Assume most cost effective gear i.e. fully kitted out, rather than having the debate about different item combinations for each lord. Where should a Bloodthirster be compared to a Chaos Lord, Old Blood, Vampire Lord etc ect (combat ability only). Obviously equipment and abilities are a huge factor so think of them at a topline level not on a per item basis, should a fully kitted out Doombull be an even match for a Bloodthirster etc etc etc fluff and perception is just as important as where they currently sit.

[Why]

Treeman ancient annoyance of netlings. Wins all challenges

[Doommasters]

Treeman ancient annoyance of netlings. Wins all challenges

So in you oppinion the Treeman ancient should be the best Lord choice for challenges then? It is not about who is the best currently but where you think they should fit into the fantasy game.

[Lance Tankmen]

naked fitted out with only one they come with and each book only able to offer up one lord.
1) Bloodthirster(cant beat its free 5+ ward save, WS10 and highest I A and M S T W)
2)Vermin Lord (only other demon in the line up, with a 5+ward and the highest I and great WS and S W)
3)Chaos Lord(this 4+ armor save wont be there vs most but he has high WS and high I plus A5 kills most before they could swing
4)Vampire count(the next one with 5 attacks and high I/WS he has fear but most will be unaffect from LD test)
5)Doom Bull (only one with S6 after demons, plus 5 W and fear as well as frenzy, even if most of the others attack him they are less likely to kill him out right than he is them)
6)Prince (kind of a draw with the tyrant, whom has enough W to withstand his 4 attack them destory him but he kicks every one elses ass with ASF)
7)Tyrant(with 5 S T W and A he cant wither most of the other attacks then destory them.)
8)Old Blood(close with the tyrant but has 2 less W so i had to give the 7th to the Tyran other wise equal combat skills)
9)Black orc warboss( again close tie with the other two above it, infact exact same as old blood except 1 more LD and 1 less starting armor save, when = 0 for the black orc)
10Tomb king(hes just so slow but is the last with 5 S&T plus he has 4 W)
11) Dwarf Lord(last one with 5 T decent combat otherwise)
12)Dread lord(honestly the prince should probly be down here, its their S and low T that knock em down but they have the Highest I its just they would be needing to kill before being hit, +5 to wound and the enemy gets 2+)
13)Highborn(the dark elf had hatred otherwise same stats)
14Grandmaster( again the elves swing first, other wise he has a 4+ to the brets 5+
15Bretonnian lord( ouch... humanity is in peril!)

so this is clearly a bad example but honestly items and magic weapons abilites only make them stronger not equal... so i see this as a decent attempt to show whos the best.

Edit: my bad forgot treemen for WE o well hes up there though....

[theunwantedbeing]

I see the power levels being as follows

Greater Daemons & Daemon princes
Vamps & Chaos Lords (and Treemen)
Minotaurs & Tyrants
Saurus Oldblood, Orc Warbosses & Beastlords
Elven & Dwarven Lords
Empire, Bretonnian & Skaven
Goblins

[Why]

So in you oppinion the Treeman ancient should be the best Lord choice for challenges then? It is not about who is the best currently but where you think they should fit into the fantasy game.

I'm not sure if I understand your post could you please reword it. I'm not trying to be a snob or anything.

That build will at least hold any greater daemon in the game for several rounds, provided that greater daemon doesn't get really lucky. So I guess second place after bloodthirsters

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

No offense, but with the limitations you've set, this "listing" seems rather useless. Fully geared should be taken into account, as well as points cost, everything -nothing in this game is without items, abilities, etc. . . heroes are there to be grand, taking away the above mentioned makes them little more than troops or monsters.

[Lance Tankmen]

heros are grand those are all lords listed so its ok

[Lord Dan]

I see the power levels being as follows

Greater Daemons & Daemon princes
Vamps & Chaos Lords (and Treemen)
Minotaurs & Tyrants
Saurus Oldblood, Orc Warbosses & Beastlords
Elven & Dwarven Lords
Empire, Bretonnian & Skaven
Goblins

Yep.

So... we're done here, then?

[Tarian]

Considering how many different roles and different builds there are, it's hard to say what's the "best".

For example, an invincible Archmage for High Elves can tie up pretty much any non-inherently magical fighter forever. That does mean they're good in challenges? Since they're absolutely horrible at killing anything.

But without gear/abilities, he (or she) with the best natural stats wins...

[thesoundofmusica]

I could be wrong but seems to me the OP is asking for our order of power wishlist between lords based on fluff. Thats not exactly what ppl are answering though. I dont know enough background really to list all of them but the top tier would be vampires, oldblood, doom bull, deamons, chaos. Mid would be elfs and dwarf lords and lower would be orcs, beastlord, humans and skaven lords.

This is just a fluff list based on nothing but the ideas I get from reading various warhammer background.

[Oogie boogie boss]

Orcs is da best! Why? Coz Orcs uz Neva beat: if we win, we win. If we die it don't count. If we run away den we come back and smash 'em again later. Simple.

[Skopey]

I'm not to sure what is meant by tiers tbh. Or whether tooling lords up with traits, runes, gifts, virtues is intended. Or whether intended for challenges etc or not. But if we're talking challenges with a tooled up lord a Bret lord should be higher than some have listed. I'd say on par with Dwarf and Elf lords.

[Oogie boogie boss]

Top Tier:
Chaos Lords
Greater Daemons
Vermin Lord
Vampire Counts
Doombulls

Mid Tier:
Dreadlords
Tyrants
Orc Warbosses
Dwarf Lords
Old Bloods
Beast Lords
HE Princes
Tomb Kings

Lower Tier:
Skaven Warlord
Goblin Warboss
Empire General
WE Highborn
Bretonnian Lords

This is purely on stats and power, not on cost-power ratio, and not thinking about magic items.

[Metacarpi]

I was about to question why so many people were rating the Vermin Lord highly, until I actually read the thread and realised it was based purely on stat line alone.

[hazmiter]

Why is the dread lord down on the list??? He can get a 1+ sv, and reverse ward from pendant, w points left over, challenge monster in my books.

[Gromdal]

Well the OP question is simple: Rank how the combat lords should be in power (fully kitted out but dont think of specific combos).

To me it is simple:

The top tier should be those that when pitted against each other is 50-50. This should be the most kitted out Chaos Lord, bret lord, dwarf lord, vampire lord, bloodthirster (or daemon prince of khorne).

The dwarf lord should be the king of defense and very hard to kill but little killing power against rank and file. The bloodthirster should be the most offensive (weak defense but dangerous against rank and file). The bret lord should be hard to kill with medium offensive str. The chaos lord should be better than the bret lord vs rank and file but weaker defense. The daemon prince should be like the chaos lord as should the vampire lord.

All max kitted out:
So if a dwarf lord charges into 40 gobbos, they will hold him for that game probably. They wont dent him but they will hold him. The thirster would tear through the gobbos eventually (this is a general idea, this is not a gaming example). If the thirst was challenged by the dwarf lord then after, lets say 10 combat rounds, one of them will fall (50/50 chance). Ultimate defense vs ultimate offense.

The mid tier are those that are (fully kitted out) weaker than the first tier by quite a margin. That does not mean that they cannot outperform for example the bret lord when it comes to offense.

From max offense to max defense it would go

Ogre Tyrant, High elf/dark elf/wood elf, saurus lord, beast lord, orc lord, empire lord

Weak tier max offense to defense:
Skaven, goblin lord

An example of this would be: The ogre lord would be better vs a unit than a bret lord but in a challenge the bret lord will be favorite.

The cost of making very hard combat lords should be hefty but possible. Keeping a BT alive will be hard no matter what equip if the enemy focuses alot on him (the price he pays for his incredible offensive str). But keeping a fully kitted out bret lord alive would be easy.

This is FULLY kitted. The standard bret lord with lets say +20pts of stuff would probably get killed by an orc lord with +100 pts of stuff.

Id probably like to see the top tier getting 100 pts of magic items and 100 pts of other stuff (virtues, powers, gifts, runes etc)

The mid ones 100 pts and the lower ones 50.

[Memnos]

Bare bones: Bloodthirster.

Kitted out: Bloodthirster.

The Bloodthirster has the best basic stats in the game, can invalidate magic weapons, have a potential strength of 10, has huge numbers of attacks and a free ward save. About the only person who stands a chance at all is the Bretonnian Lord and that's only if he gets lucky with a Killing Blow. On average, the Bloodthirster wins all combats at all times.