Dual Dark Elf Lv. 4's

[Lord Dan]

We have a tournament coming up next weekend at our LGS, and I've been giving some thought to running two Lv. 4 supreme sorceresses. My thinking is to run:

Lv. 4 with sacrificial dagger and lore of shadow
Lv. 4 with darkstar cloak and lore of dark magic

Even with a bad magic phase I get +1PD, the dagger effectively creates one for each spell, and both sorceresses would have the power of darkness spell. At first glance I feel these two lores compliment each other relatively well. The Lore of Shadow can reduce S and T to make the two bomb spells in the LoDM (soul stealer and black horror) really powerful, and the LoDM has the offensive spells that the Lore of Shadow lacks.

What do you guys think? Is this a good lore combination, or should I pair them with something else?

[Tarian]

It looks like a good combo, similar to what I run with High Elves, which is Shadow/Life.

You have enough dice generating stuff to be able to have a consistent magic phase, and the Lore of Shadow stacks so well with Stat Tests, even its own Pit of Shades.

[steevn]

do you always use power of darkness

[tmarichards]

I really like DE level 4s, Shadow/Metal has always been my combination of choice. Dark is great for killing lightly armoured stuff, but it does leave you a little light on Mournfang/knight coverage.

I almost always go with Stabby Dagger and Dispel Scroll though, as double level 4 + Cauldron + 2 peg heroes means I can't fund a hero mage. Having enough dice to fund them both isn't really an issue, instead you just pick the 2-3 spells that you need out of your very extensive toolbox.

It does help having the Stabby Dagger though, easily one of the most broken items in the game.

[Djekar]

@ Tom: I have found that generally metal and shadow compliment different lists, though - which means mixing the two lores is rough. I could just be playing poorly though, so I'm open to suggestions on that front.

@Lord Dan, the poll man: I like the idea of Dark and Shadow being paired but there are 4 issues that come up. First - what do you have that deals with regenerating/flammable monsters (treemen/hydra/hellpit)? Second - dispel scroll maybe? Tom makes a solid point about the dispel scroll likely being higher priority than the +1 PD. Third - What's the plan vs. high armor models (other than the obvious mindrazor)? Finally - do you have any long range threat spells? I find that if I don't have something punishing my opponents on the way across the board that it becomes easier for them to save the scroll for that crucial mindrazor non-IF. I ask because the LoDM is pretty close range and even shadow can get hard to position right if you are hanging out in the back (pit is only 24" after all).

[Soundwave]

Nope perfect as is! I used this very combo to a more than horrific result vs skaven and oh boy it ripped them to shreds.(was that 60 t2 withered clanrats pushing a bell,hit with soul stealer now less than half) and black horror with enfeeble is just as evil.The biggest point is that dark magic is low casting whilst shadow cost more to cast so even in a bad phase with the dagger you can rip out a couple of effective spells. As for a dispel scroll worry not play in style, go on the offense!

[Lord Dan]

@ Tom: I have found that generally metal and shadow compliment different lists, though - which means mixing the two lores is rough. I could just be playing poorly though, so I'm open to suggestions on that front.

@Lord Dan, the poll man: I like the idea of Dark and Shadow being paired but there are 4 issues that come up. First - what do you have that deals with regenerating/flammable monsters (treemen/hydra/hellpit)? Second - dispel scroll maybe? Tom makes a solid point about the dispel scroll likely being higher priority than the +1 PD. Third - What's the plan vs. high armor models (other than the obvious mindrazor)? Finally - do you have any long range threat spells? I find that if I don't have something punishing my opponents on the way across the board that it becomes easier for them to save the scroll for that crucial mindrazor non-IF. I ask because the LoDM is pretty close range and even shadow can get hard to position right if you are hanging out in the back (pit is only 24" after all).

Thanks for all of the comments so far gents. I'll be swapping out the darkstar cloak for a scroll, and before I run to class I wanted to take a moment to answer these questions:

1. Regenerating Monsters - I take a unit of black guard with the flaming banner, and I have a hydra who could in theory waste his flaming attack on another monster just to get rid of the regen for a shooting phase if things get desperate.
2. I'm actually kind of confused, because lore of dark magic is amazing against high armor opponents. Both Soul stealer (all models in the unit take a S2 hit with no armor save) and Black Horror (all models hit by large template take a S test or take a wound with no armor save), particularly when combined with the Withering or Enfeebling Foe, would make short work of just about anything with high armor save. Additionally, as you mentioned, the lore of shadow has both pit of shades and mindrazor, which are also quite good.
3. I don't have a huge problem with range generally, mostly because I'm a particularly aggressive player and end up halfway across the board turn 1. Really it's going to come down to deployment, so I'll need to keep your points in mind and ensure the high-value targets will be close to my sorceresses throughout the game when I'm placing them.

[Soundwave]

Range for wizards = death for wizards.And you want to opt for the scroll?Maybe you could use it to dispel a fireball in turn 3(before she dies) or use your darkstar cloak to rip extra shreds preventing the unit from even reaching her?Dark elves have naught for dispel any how,although you do have 2 +4 to dispel mages there

[Djekar]

Good point on #2 L.D. - I totally forgot that LoDM ignored Armor Saves. Whoops! I guess it shows how little I've used that lore...

Sounds like you have your bases covered then - happy hunting!

EDIT:

Lord Dan - I was thinking about this thread last night and I had the notion that you would get "more" dice out of your Sacrificial Dagger if you put it on the Dark Sorceress. She can generally cast with 1 dice + a stab (maybe 2 for the #5 + #6 spells), which means you can generally plan to throw an appropriate number of dice at the 1 shadow spell that you want (withering, pit, miasma - because we all know that Occams eats all your dice, always) and and still have your remaining dice to push through as many small Dark Magic spells as you can, using the dagger to make those dice stretch farther.

[DragonArmy]

It's late into the month, but I would that if you do take the cloak, adding in the seal of grhond goes a long ways. Two extra dispel dice a turn is effective.


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[mostlyharmless]

Have you considered dropping the cloak for the Tome of Furion? I know it seems odd, but I'm a fan of having a variety of spells, and between power of darkness and the sacrificial dagger, you'll have plenty of power dice to throw around. It helps to have that extra spell to ensure you get those nice Dark Magic bomb spells.

[hazmiter]

I ran a similar list.
Supreme, book of ashur, talis endure (lore shadow).
Supreme, stabby dagger, pendant khaleth (lore dark)
Nasty combo, and it works, especially late magic phase (if you have the dice) withering, melkoths are choice, as it paves the road for bladewind, soul stealer and suprise surprise, doombolts and chill winds. (all these dm spells are easy to one dice and stab).

[Gamu]

It's late into the month, but I would that if you do take the cloak, adding in the seal of grhond goes a long ways. Two extra dispel dice a turn is effective.


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The cloak only adds power dice, not dispel dice, am I wrong?

[hazmiter]

Cloak is power dice, correct.
Seal ghrond is dispel.....
Hehehehe, stabby dagger.... I'll miss it w new book comes out :'(

[DragonArmy]

The cloak only adds power dice, not dispel dice, am I wrong?

I am probably in the wrong and you are right. I took "in each phase" to mean both +1 dice in both your and your opponents magic phase; however, you can't generate "power dice" in your opponent's phase--that qualifier changes the reading.

Oops


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[dms505]

Depending on your local rules. In some tournaments they limit spell dice used per magic phase to 12 regardless of where they come from. As long as they don't use those rules you should have a nice heavy magic phase until they reach your wizards.

[BattleofLund]

Lord Dan - I was thinking about this thread last night and I had the notion that you would get "more" dice out of your Sacrificial Dagger if you put it on the Dark Sorceress. She can generally cast with 1 dice + a stab (maybe 2 for the #5 + #6 spells), which means you can generally plan to throw an appropriate number of dice at the 1 shadow spell that you want (withering, pit, miasma - because we all know that Occams eats all your dice, always) and and still have your remaining dice to push through as many small Dark Magic spells as you can, using the dagger to make those dice stretch farther.

Risky one-dicing though, since 1 and 2 always fail.

[Djekar]

That's why you use the dagger for back up. I've been trying it for the last couple games, and it really stretches even a mediocre magic phase.

[hazmiter]

Djekar, if you use morathi with one, make sure she has 80 odd spears to stab..... She chows down hard on them, tour de la dark magic in one phase :P

[Citadel97501]

I use a similar trick with my Double Tapping High Elves, by using Teclis with the Lore of Life, and Enfeeblement from a Hero Mage. This keeps all of your buffing benefits while also giving you a very good chance to obliterate any non-ogre unit.

Lets say you use Enfeeblement on 18 x WoC's dropping their strength to 2 with an average roll, now you kill 12 of them leaving only 6 of them?