I'm sad about the direction of this company.

[Sleazy]

The whole price/WD/store thing has been done to death, I'm sick of it too dont get me wrong but recently something new and dare I say insidious has become apparent.

Now this may have been around longer than I realise, I have tended not to game much over the past few years and its only recently I started to actually play again.

There have always been howls of "NERF" but recently I notice that whenever a new codex is released its the older unchanging models that get the nerf whilst the newer models are usually the better gaming option.

Its so common now that it seems to be accepted as the norm. Whilst I understand the need to sell new models surely it shouldnt be done at the expense of the games integrity and the obsoletion (is that a word?) of peoples collections?

The "meta" game will always change - that is not my point, it used to be transports, it now seems to be flyers. Its the intentional nerfing of EXISTING, still available codex entrys that gets me. Some examples being Necron destroyers being massively toned down because, hey necron players have already bought loads. The carnifex is now a very poor choice compared to the newer trygon kit.

Maybe I am reading too much into this? usually I dont care if X unit is always regarded as poor in comparison to Y unit because I tend to get whichever model I like best. Its just the thought that X is only poorer than Y because the bean counters wanted to sell more Y.

Excuse the rant, I normally dont do that. I'm off for a lie down.

[Finnigan2004]

Why should GW provide all this for free? what makes you think that as a retailer they have to provide you with facilities to do, and have things for free?

Good question. Unfortunately, the answer is becoming very apparent in my neck of the woods. Three out of four GW shops closed in Vancouver, more people playing Privateer Press stuff, Battlefront, Malifaux, et al.. Those that keep playing refusing to pay grossly inflated prices for GW stuff, and have turned to online retailers because there is simply no reason to spend your money at the local GW because the good will that they used to engender to loyal gamers is used up. Battlefront certainly gets this, giving out new editions of their main book for free to gamers with older copies, while GW gouges us for ninety dollars for the new rules.

It's a different business model that GW have gone to over the years, and time will tell if they have made the right choices, or whether they will continue to experience falling sales as gamers move to younger, hungrier companies that seem to value their business more. You are right that GW is a business that owes us nothing. Unfortunately, they seem to be late to the realization that we don't owe them anything either. I suspect that a Hobbit fueled bubble might sustain them a little longer, but they are moving into dangerous territory with continuously falling sales. What eventually moved me (primarily) over to Privateer Press was a dearth of opponents in my geographical area that meant WHFB was no longer a realistic hobby option by and large.

[Reinholt]

I suspect that a Hobbit fueled bubble might sustain them a little longer, but they are moving into dangerous territory with continuously falling sales. What eventually moved me (primarily) over to Privateer Press was a dearth of opponents in my geographical area that meant WHFB was no longer a realistic hobby option by and large.

I just want to chime in here to echo this. My initial interest in Malifaux (and, lately, board games) was rekindled precisely due to this issue: the only GW game I could reliably find in this area was 40k. The fantasy and LotR communities are basically dead. They hit the wall with the combination of price increases and lack of recruitment, fell below critical mass, and just vanished. Now, it's easier for me to get a game of Malifaux, Battlefront, or any number of high end board games than it is to get a game of fantasy or LotR. 40k is still around, but it's slowing.

This is sort of the core point I have talked about many times before regarding sales volumes. They decline gradually over time, until you pass some critical mass threshold, and then they fall off a cliff as people can't find other players anymore. That is when they drop it and move to other companies/products.

[blongbling]

Good question. Unfortunately, the answer is becoming very apparent in my neck of the woods. Three out of four GW shops closed in Vancouver, more people playing Privateer Press stuff, Battlefront, Malifaux, et al.. Those that keep playing refusing to pay grossly inflated prices for GW stuff, and have turned to online retailers because there is simply no reason to spend your money at the local GW because the good will that they used to engender to loyal gamers is used up. Battlefront certainly gets this, giving out new editions of their main book for free to gamers with older copies, while GW gouges us for ninety dollars for the new rules.

It's a different business model that GW have gone to over the years, and time will tell if they have made the right choices, or whether they will continue to experience falling sales as gamers move to younger, hungrier companies that seem to value their business more. You are right that GW is a business that owes us nothing. Unfortunately, they seem to be late to the realization that we don't owe them anything either. I suspect that a Hobbit fueled bubble might sustain them a little longer, but they are moving into dangerous territory with continuously falling sales. What eventually moved me (primarily) over to Privateer Press was a dearth of opponents in my geographical area that meant WHFB was no longer a realistic hobby option by and large.

Ah, but are you confusing what a retailer does with what the business is doing as a whole. All the reasons you mentioned for people leaving are focused on the cost, not the in store service.

I don't believe that the Hobbit will do anything like the money LOtR did because GW wont touch a part work again and it was that which generated all the cash for them...not the movies or its existing customers

[shelfunit.]

I don't believe that the Hobbit will do anything like the money LOtR did because GW wont touch a part work again and it was that which generated all the cash for them...not the movies or its existing customers

I might just be being a bit thick Blongbling, but what does that bit mean exactly?

[paddyalexander]

I think blongbling is refering to the forthnightly publication that Games Workshop co-produced with DeAgosotini called Battle Games in Middle Earth. Every two weeks an issue came with a sprue of plastic infantry (usually 12 infantry or 6 calvery) or a metal hero and content that slowly built up the rules and hobby over time including painting, terrain, scenarios and conversion guides. At €6.50 it was a great cheap way to collect the LotR games, often with news agents cutting the price of unsold magazines. I got about 60 Uruk-Hai and 24 Riders of Rohan for about €16 altogether.

A lot of the younger gamers I know were introduced to the wargaming hobby trough that publication. It was resposable for introducing a lot of non-wargamers to the gwPLC LotRs range and was definitly a factor in generating the extra sales that resulted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...n_Middle-earth

[shelfunit.]

I think blongbling is refering to the forthnightly publication that Games Workshop co-produced with DeAgosotini called Battle Games in Middle Earth. Every two weeks an issue came with a sprue of plastic infantry (usually 12 infantry or 6 calvery) or a metal hero and content that slowly built up the rules and hobby over time including painting, terrain, scenarios and conversion guides. At €6.50 it was a great cheap way to collect the LotR games, often with news agents cutting the price of unsold magazines. I got about 60 Uruk-Hai and 24 Riders of Rohan for about €16 altogether.

A lot of the younger gamers I know were introduced to the wargaming hobby trough that publication. It was resposable for introducing a lot of non-wargamers to the gwPLC LotRs range and was definitly a factor in generating the extra sales that resulted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...n_Middle-earth

That was what I was thinking he meant, but just wanted to be sure. I agree that that probably brought in more than half of the additional gamers GW pulled in during that period - in a similar way that Heroquest did all those years ago.

[EmperorNorton]

I think blongbling is refering to the forthnightly publication that Games Workshop co-produced with DeAgosotini called Battle Games in Middle Earth. Every two weeks an issue came with a sprue of plastic infantry (usually 12 infantry or 6 calvery) or a metal hero and content that slowly built up the rules and hobby over time including painting, terrain, scenarios and conversion guides. At €6.50 it was a great cheap way to collect the LotR games, often with news agents cutting the price of unsold magazines. I got about 60 Uruk-Hai and 24 Riders of Rohan for about €16 altogether.

A lot of the younger gamers I know were introduced to the wargaming hobby trough that publication. It was resposable for introducing a lot of non-wargamers to the gwPLC LotRs range and was definitly a factor in generating the extra sales that resulted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...n_Middle-earth

One important aspect was that DeAgostini paid for advertisement on TV.
They did not rely on people wandering into stores and discovering the product purely by chance.
Without the same exposure I doubt The Hobbit will have anywhere near the impact for GW.

[Finnigan2004]

Ah, but are you confusing what a retailer does with what the business is doing as a whole. All the reasons you mentioned for people leaving are focused on the cost, not the in store service.

I don't believe that the Hobbit will do anything like the money LOtR did because GW wont touch a part work again and it was that which generated all the cash for them...not the movies or its existing customers

Nah, no confusion, the retailer and business are inextricably linked-- particularly in the case of GW shops. GW wants a premium for their product, and they have every right to do so. If they do that though, they had best provide some sort of added value that their competitors don't. They could do this in many ways. One would be to provide the extras in their shops that they traditionally have. This sort of thing brings people in and keeps them loyal to GW. They could look at battlefront's policy of replacing books for free. That would win them loyalty too. They could have occasional sales, like the one that Privateer ran-- leaving me with a nascent Skorne army that I had no idea that I had wanted previously (but still will end up buying more minis for). They could run tournaments that were GW only, like they used to. Unfortunately, they no longer do that either. In fact, when attending tournaments around here, most other gaming systems offer more and bigger ones. They could write a tighter and better rule set than their opponents... I'd better not start on this point. Perhaps they could put out a monthly gaming magazine with relevant articles, like No Quarter. There are lots of things that they could do to add value to their product.

Overall, the point is not one of cost, it's one of value (although cost can be a trump card, as I remember the first night the blood knights came out in a GW store and I saw two different sets of parents march their sons out when they asked for a box of them). What value does GW add that makes their product worth more than their competitors? What value do their competitors add that GW no longer does? If GW has no strategy to add value to their products relative to their competitors, but want to charge premium prices-- then they had best come up with one.

[Sean_OBrien]

the retailer and business are inextricably linked-- particularly in the case of GW shops.

In...less than half maybe...of their market. The other people have no GW store, the extra "value" which is claimed by a GW store is irrelevant (and any related GW events...products...tournaments...). So, even if they were to start to hold more in store gaming - offer paints and bits again - hold regular tournaments...it still would only impact the half of the market which has already reached saturation (or close to it).

The price keeps going up, but the value they add keeps going down.

Anywho - I am sure some of you have seen these articles in the past...but for those who haven't:

http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538848p1.html

There are some interesting parallels between TSR and GW - Tyrants and Wizards in particular is a good read. With a market as small as this one, you do sort of need to look a bit outside of the box (but still on the same shelf) to find similar case studies.

[Havock]

GW is letting go of a portion of their customers and c;amping the other portion tight to them. I don't know about other areas, but around here it is basically "GW fans" and "those that play other stuff/everything", with the GW fans being in the minority. Not that there is any hate or something -although some of the more fanatical GW fans are annoyed at the fact that on gaming nights it is Infinity/Warmachine/FoW with a bit of fantasy/40k instead of vice versa (like it would be two years ago).

[Fear Ghoul]

The whole price/WD/store thing has been done to death, I'm sick of it too dont get me wrong but recently something new and dare I say insidious has become apparent.

Now this may have been around longer than I realise, I have tended not to game much over the past few years and its only recently I started to actually play again.

There have always been howls of "NERF" but recently I notice that whenever a new codex is released its the older unchanging models that get the nerf whilst the newer models are usually the better gaming option.

Its so common now that it seems to be accepted as the norm. Whilst I understand the need to sell new models surely it shouldnt be done at the expense of the games integrity and the obsoletion (is that a word?) of peoples collections?

The "meta" game will always change - that is not my point, it used to be transports, it now seems to be flyers. Its the intentional nerfing of EXISTING, still available codex entrys that gets me. Some examples being Necron destroyers being massively toned down because, hey necron players have already bought loads. The carnifex is now a very poor choice compared to the newer trygon kit.

Maybe I am reading too much into this? usually I dont care if X unit is always regarded as poor in comparison to Y unit because I tend to get whichever model I like best. Its just the thought that X is only poorer than Y because the bean counters wanted to sell more Y.

Excuse the rant, I normally dont do that. I'm off for a lie down.

This is a commonly repeated conspiracy theory which has no basis in fact whatsoever. GW releases almost as many models which have underwhelming rules and/or high points costs as they do the opposite. If you want proof of this, just ask Tyranid players.

[jack da greenskin]

This is a commonly repeated conspiracy theory which has no basis in fact whatsoever. GW releases almost as many models which have underwhelming rules and/or high points costs as they do the opposite. If you want proof of this, just ask Tyranid players.

Ask them about what, specifically? The fact carnifexes used to be good, and are now terrible compared to the new Trygon or mawloc... That fits exactly with sleazy's point.

[-DE-]

Oh, really? Let us analyze some recent codices:

Imperial Guard:
Boost: Valkyries/Vendettas, Hydras, Manticores (new), Veterans, Chimeras ((arguably) underused).
Nerf: Leman Russes, Basilisks.

Tyranids:
Boost: Trygons, Hive Guard, Tervigons, Tyrannofices (new); Devourer Gaunts, non-winged Tyrants (underused).
Nerf: Pyrovores (new); pretty much everything else, most notably Carnifices and Spinegaunts.

Gray Knights:
Boost: Henchmen, Paladins, Storm Ravens, Purifiers, Draigo, Crowe (new); Coteaz, (Rifleman) Dreads (underused).
Nerf: Terminators, mixed-weapon PA Knights, Land Raiders.

Necrons:
Boost: Barges, Scythes, Crypteks, Imotekh et al (new); Scarabs, Spiders (underused), Wraiths (used).
Nerf: Guard (new); Monoliths, C'Tan.

Space Marines and clones:
Boost: Thunder Wolves, Sanguinary Guard (as of 6th), Rifleman Dreads, Storm Eagle, Sternguard, LR Crusaders, Vulkan et al (new); Typhoon Speeders/MM+HF Speeders, Librarians, Razorbacks (incl. new Plasmaback), TH Terminators, Missile Launchers (underused)...
Nerf: Land Raiders (new Crusader better), Chaplains, Terminators (Cyclone/AssC), Claw Termies, PF Sergeants...

You get the idea... The only *new* Tyranid unit that sucks is the Pyrovore, a singular dud.

It's as bad in Fantasy I hear, but I'm not familiar enough with that system to form an opinion. Maybe someone qualified can chime in on that one.

[Fear Ghoul]

Ask them about what, specifically? The fact carnifexes used to be good, and are now terrible compared to the new Trygon or mawloc... That fits exactly with sleazy's point.

Games Workshop released 6 model kits with the latest Tyranid codex: the Trygon/Mawloc, Hive Guard, Pyrovore, Venomthrope, Raveners, and Gargoyles. All of these range from either terrible (Pyrovore) to good (Hive Guard), but I can't think of any complaints I've ever read saying that any of these units are overpowered. At the same time, many people used their now nerfed Carnifex models as stand-in Tervigons (which are popular), and which GW didn't release until recently. Overall, the Tyranids codex was so bad that it surely affected overall purchases. Hardly indicative of a trend for making everything new "superspecialawesome". Oh, and of coruse Zoanthropes got a boost as well.

Imperial Guard:
Boost: Valkyries/Vendettas, Hydras, Manticores (new), Veterans, Chimeras ((arguably) underused).
Nerf: Leman Russes, Basilisks.

Tyranids:
Boost: Trygons, Hive Guard, Tervigons, Tyrannofices (new); Devourer Gaunts, non-winged Tyrants (underused).
Nerf: Pyrovores (new); pretty much everything else, most notably Carnifices and Spinegaunts.

Gray Knights:
Boost: Henchmen, Paladins, Storm Ravens, Purifiers, Draigo, Crowe (new); Coteaz, (Rifleman) Dreads (underused).
Nerf: Terminators, mixed-weapon PA Knights, Land Raiders.

Necrons:
Boost: Barges, Scythes, Crypteks, Imotekh et al (new); Scarabs, Spiders (underused), Wraiths (used).
Nerf: Guard (new); Monoliths, C'Tan.

Space Marines and clones:
Boost: Thunder Wolves, Sanguinary Guard (as of 6th), Rifleman Dreads, Storm Eagle, Sternguard, LR Crusaders, Vulkan et al (new); Typhoon Speeders/MM+HF Speeders, Librarians, Razorbacks (incl. new Plasmaback), TH Terminators, Missile Launchers (underused)...
Nerf: Land Raiders (new Crusader better), Chaplains, Terminators (Cyclone/AssC), Claw Termies, PF Sergeants...

You seem to confuse boosted with overpowered. For instance, most of the entries you include for the Imperial Guard and Tyranids boosted categories would not be considered broken, but rather either new units (and thus not boosted by definition) or old underused units (which is good).

In fact, were it not for the Valkyrie/Vendetta and Veteran/Chimera duo, most of the Imperial Guard codex (including new units and models) would be considered either decent or subpar. The Tyranids codex is the same, just without the broken due to make it competitive.

[Finnigan2004]

http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538848p1.html

There are some interesting parallels between TSR and GW - Tyrants and Wizards in particular is a good read. With a market as small as this one, you do sort of need to look a bit outside of the box (but still on the same shelf) to find similar case studies.

Hey Sean. Agreed on all your points. That said, I just had to thank you for the link. Super interesting. I liked the Colbert interview. Tyrants and Wizards is a very parallel case, we'll have to see how it plays out and whether GW tries to enforce a copyright on dragons too. I'll give even odds over a period of the next five years.

[Lord Damocles]

Oh, really? Let us analyze some recent codices:Necrons:
Boost: Barges, Scythes, Crypteks, Imotekh et al (new); Scarabs, Spiders (underused), Wraiths (used).
Nerf: Guard (new); Monoliths, C'Tan.

Except, everything which carried over from the 3rd ed. Codex got better with the possible exceptions of the Monolith and C'tan (which are arguable, because although they lost stats/resilience etc. they also got significantly cheaper, and got some nice buffs in other areas).

In fact, the only units which could be accused of potentially being underpowered (Praetorians and some characters) were new units.

[-DE-]

But that's exactly the point I'm making! The units that few took in their lists under the old codex got a boost to make people buy new models and shelve what they already got. And what did they have under 4th? Warriors (which are still useful being, you know, one of the 2 Troop choices), (Heavy) Destroyers (weak under 5th), Monoliths (weak under 5th), Destroyer Lords (weak under 5th), and C'Tan (weak under 5th). The unused units I listed in the post above got better, and the new units are great (Barge, Ark, Scythes, Immortals, Crypteks), with only the Guard being a brain fart.

Tyranid players had to practically build their armies from the ground up, for Christ sakes! Codices are nowadays written in such a way as to make poor-selling units better, good-selling units worse, and some (if not all) new units good to very good to force existing players to buy lots of new units to retain the power-level of their armies. I don't understand how you can argue otherwise given the evidence. And remember, we're talking competitive play, not "cinematic" play.

[jack da greenskin]

Tyranid players had to practically build their armies from the ground up, for Christ sakes! Codices are nowadays written in such a way as to make poor-selling units better, good-selling units worse, and some (if not all) new units good to very good to force existing players to buy lots of new units to retain the power-level of their armies. I don't understand how you can argue otherwise given the evidence. And remember, we're talking competitive play, not "cinematic" play.

One of the reasons I became disenchanted with GW is the notion of competive plsy with either of their main games is ludicrous when you've seen the balance and water-tight rules of competitors.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I think the biggest value adding feature of GW games have been the ability to easily get games when somewhere new. All the other stuff talked about is nice, but ultimately the biggest sales advantage have been people finding other people to play against and if you are new and just found people to game with odds are good you would be pointed to GW games. By the sounds of it that's starting to change. I know if net recommend anyone starting GW, at least not without a good tall about what they want and a good look at all the options, depending on your local area. And once GW games are no longer 'automatic' they are going to have to do some of these value adds or other things to help them in the competition. Now they probably don't have to worry in a while, they are still the big kid in the playground, but dissatisfied customers/gamers means fewer people to recruit for you and more bad pr.