why the guard hate?

[Tebrey]

Having played Guard for six years now, I have to ask... what are we supposed to play? Assault lists?

We don't have anything that can survive a round of assault, and don't say blob squads.
Armored fist companies have been a part of the game for two codexes. So were airborne. Some of us used Valks long before they came out in plastic.

Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

[The bearded one]

Having played Guard for six years now, I have to ask... what are we supposed to play? Assault lists?

We don't have anything that can survive a round of assault, and don't say blob squads.
Armored fist companies have been a part of the game for two codexes. So were airborne. Some of us used Valks long before they came out in plastic.

Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

I support this post, except by removing every mention to guard and guard lists, and replacing them with Tau and tau lists.

[nicromanov]

Sounds like a socially maladjusted chap who wants to feel superior by putting down strangers, but without the intellect to form coherent opinions of his own. They're a common enough type if you hang around gamers long enough.

Best to dismiss him with a laugh.

sounds about right ,but I don’t think its just gamers you get these chaps in ,after all ,its hardly different from one person slighting another over his choice of football team ,or a customer rage quitting because the guy in front got the wrong sandwich in subway and messed up the shops smell

[jsullivanlaw]

It's because most things in the current IG codex are criminally undercosted. And on top of that they get the order system... And they can squadron everything. In 5th edition it was mainly a bunch of ultra nasty tanks hiding behind a wall of chimeras containing scoring units while Vendettas swooped around killing any vehicles or monsterous creatures that you brought.

[Thoth62]

In my gaming group we all have a little ditty we like to shout whenever a certain army hits the board (all in good fun of course). I think it dates back to 4th edition when they could be stupidly effective. Goes something like this:

"Stupid Tau!"

[Vaktathi]

To be fair, there's a handful of (very useful) things that were undercosted (or in some cases, weren't by themselves but synergized *very* well), but squadrons sucked, and at least half the book (if not more) never sees the table because it's overcosted and/or just doesn't work well (e.g. Leman Russ Vanquishers...155pts for a 72" Meltagun with no AP1 and BS3, Stormtroopers, etc).

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Evidence that Cruddace is not a great codex writer. There are some nice ideas in the Guard codex but the costing is all over the place.

Valk/Vendetta spam has a bad rep not simply because it moves away from the traditional Guard style but because it's one of their best builds. If it was reasonably balanced with the traditional Guard style I doubt everyone would be complaining so much.

Now that it's a flyer I reckon the Vendetta currently costs around 60-70% of what it should.

[carldooley]

with the new ally rules in the rulebook, guard are looking at just getting stronger. Just look at two HQs in the GK book - karadread and coteaz. for the low price of 112 pts, leafblower is still going strong (coteaz + 3 warrior henchman troops choice). then there is karadread - get an infantry squad stuck into combat with something nasty, and drop OSRs onto them. . .

add to that, they are a go to ally with access to CCS with Astropath & OotF, Marbo, stormtroopers, or a PBS, Vendettas\Valkyries and Hydras.

[Commissar Davis]

It comes mainly from those that think that Imperial Guard should be a walk over, no harder than they were in other editions where it was all uphill for them to be efficient, think that they should be stuck as two dimensional stereotype, or all the fore mentioned. They are however no better than any other 5ed codex, but people cry because they are no worse either or they are playing 4ed codices.

They got a lot of stick when the 5ed codex came out, as they were one of the first. Only Marines now get more hate, even though Necrons and DEldar are just as good.

The so called leaf blower was a 2000 pt list, and is an advertisement for why the belief that you should be able to fit everything in your codex in a list is bad. Its creator got beat down by a nid list in a European tourney when he tried the same thing at 1500 pts.

[Chem-Dog]

Guard have an army build called Leaf blower that ruined 40 and made one part of the unholy trinity with space wolves and grey knights.

Heavens to mercy(!)

see now this is what gets me ,my set up doesnt use transport ,its all on foot.
even i get annoyed with mechanized guard ,just because the players tend to thinkin terms of ww2 rather than 40k

I resent that! I've been playing Mech Inf almost exclusively since the Steel Legion first made it possible for the first time since 2nd Edition (where being a skint teen made it impossible). I'm not, in any way, a WWII enthusiast.

Leafblower lists meant lists with lots (and lots and lots and lots) of big scary templates pieplating all over you, literally "blowing you away", right?

What do chimera's have to do with that..?

Yeah, that's what I understood it to be too. I think the Chimeras are generally there to hide the flesh-sacks that are essential to a legal force. Two Chimeras can each house a Company Command Squad which can, in turn, each house a Master of Ordnance, the 30 point Basalisk upgrade.

Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

Nonsense man! We have bayonets and faith in the Emperor. CHAAAAAARGE!!!!!

I support this post, except by removing every mention to guard and guard lists, and replacing them with Tau and tau lists.

I support this post except by removing every word and replacing it with naked ladies.

It's because most things in the current IG codex are criminally undercosted.

My Ogryn and Stormtroopers laugh like gold plated drains every time someone says this.

Now that it's a flyer I reckon the Vendetta is at least 60-70% undercosted.

As a dual Tank-Hunter and Transport, I think you're right. Drop the transport option and you lose on of the two reasons it's an asset. As an anti Tank unit with three TL Lascannons it'll always be considered pretty handy (especially with twinlinking being a semi-cure for Snapshots and AP2 rolling penetrating hits up the chart one pip) but having a full transport compartment in addition makes it a no-brainer choice over the standard Valk in 99% of situations. It also flies in the face of fluff.



Almost all examples I've had personally of "Guard hate" are people who run hideously powerful lists themselves and are incensed that somebody has a halfway effective counter to it. In essence it's "You gave my OP army a run for it's money ergo you must be OP+" with nary a thought spared for bad generalship, luck of the dice and the folly of lumping too many points into single units that then get pasted by a well placed Demolisher Shell.

[Sons of Lorgar]

Hehe, my favourite guard list at 1750pts contain two platoons in chimeras (11 in total), a single heavy weapon squad on foot and a Salamander Cmnd HQ all the chimeras have Autocannon or Twin-Heavy bolter turrets and most of the mutant guards has autocannons or heavy bolters as squad support weapon and a varied mix of special weapons.

[Sexiest_hero]

Some people cry foul whenever IG hit the table, and that isn't right. But don't, think that the unholy combination of meltavets vendettas, manticores and hydras was not the least bit op. It's like saying Draigowing wasn't an issue.You can tell when A book has balance issues when it becomes upward of 40% of armies at a major tourny. That said, the Eldar flying circus of 4th edition was the worst thing I've ever seen in 40k.

[Major_Manny]

Face it guys, GW don't balance points at all, they literally make it up as they go along, i very much doubt that there's an actual formula. If its a kit they want to sell, you bet your ass it'll be cheap points and good.

[mercury14]

so ,i was playing a game against a mate in my flgs ,when some guy ,who i will assume was tfg strolls up and says somethign along the lines of "oh ,you play guard ,why bother playingthis game." .
now i understand some people don tlike the idea of humans in sci fi for whatever reason ,i dunno ,maybe its a fondess tall pointy eared women.
but it got me thinking ,why do some players seem to have serious hate for guard?

My old group thought my Eldar were OP and some didn't want to play against me.

[tuebor]

My old group thought my Eldar were OP and some didn't want to play against me.

In 4th edition Eldar skimmers were pretty much unkillable, so if it's that old a group they might have had a point about them being OP.

I've run into a lot of Guard hate over the years, most of it rather silly. Some people don't like regular humans in their heroic space fantasy game. Of course, if GW would make the weird Imperial things in the codex (Ogryns, Ratlings, Techpriests, Priests) more useful that would probably help with this attitude.

Some don't like the Guard's playstyle, I knew a guy back in 4th that refused to play against Guard, Tau or Necrons because he hated armies that wouldn't "come out and fight". He played a Khorne army and when asked he honestly thought that Guard/Tau/Necrons should come out and "fight like men" in close combat and stop being "cowards". This wasn't some overexcited child just starting the game, this was a 40 year old man who had played since Rogue Trader.

Since the new codex came out some people get a bad taste in their mouth either after a severe beating at the hands of a Guard player or after reading about such things on the Internet. The gaming group I played with through 3rd and most of 4th had a similar collective bad experience with an Armageddon list Black Templar player who cheated for several months. Even though we knew he cheated we all had a bad taste about Space Marines in general, it wasn't rational and didn't make sense but there it is.

Probably my favorite Guard hate comes from people who were so used to the Guard being a punching bag in 3rd and 4th editions that when the 5th edition codex came out it upset the natural order of things. I suppose this attitude was reinforced by most of the fiction and art (with some exceptions like Gaunt's Ghosts) where the Guard exist as something for the big bad guys or heros to slaughter effortlessly. A guy from the last gaming group I played in before moving to Europe got pretty upset when a 30 man power blob killed off a 5 man squad of lightning claw Terminators because "Guard should never win in close combat".

[Xerkics]

I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.

[carldooley]

I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.

warriors = troops. ogryns = elite, and one less PBS, Marbo, or stormtrooper squad.

My circle forgives me for playing guard on account of the fact that I very rarely bring the same list twice.

[mercury14]

In 4th edition Eldar skimmers were pretty much unkillable, so if it's that old a group they might have had a point about them being OP.

I just started playing in 5th.

[TimLeeson]

to the OP, dunno! sometimes you do meet some odd folk. I had one person tell me in a rather snarky way that because I dislike vehicles (im not a fan of the models, they don't suit my taste is all) and prefer mostly to all footsoldiers I "should" go play WHF the other day. Dunno why people have weird biases like that myself...seems kind of absurd to me!

[Lord Damocles]

Face it guys, GW don't balance points at all, they literally make it up as they go along, i very much doubt that there's an actual formula. If its a kit they want to sell, you bet your ass it'll be cheap points and good.

Counter point: Pyrovore.