why the guard hate?

[Blinder]

Counter point: Pyrovore.

Pyr-a-what-now?

(heh)

I have to say, I am actually a bit surprised that the IG-hate has lasted as long as it has in a general form. When the 3.5 book came out I remember a lot of whining and doomsaying ("OMG they get better just for standing next to each other!!!" "OMG they can upgrade to BS 3.5!!!") but it died down pretty quickly once everyone realized that guardsmen were, in fact, still guardsmen. I figured similar would happen with the bulk of the new book, because it mainly just let us actually play under the existing ruleset and a lot of the doomsaying ("OMG AP3 lasguns!!!" "OMG they can un-pin themselves!!!") turned out to not be game-breaking after all. I figured it would basically die down to a healthy disdain for valk-spam, similar to the way (for the folks in my area at least) chronic cases of "nob biker syndrome" continued to garner some flak but it was the specific combo, not the whole book.

I completely agree about the valk/vendetta being stupidly cheap, though...

[Vaktathi]

I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.

Please realize however that Ogryn are generally seen as awful, and point for point your Warriors will tear them apart in CC.

Probably my favorite Guard hate comes from people who were so used to the Guard being a punching bag in 3rd and 4th editions that when the 5th edition codex came out it upset the natural order of things. I suppose this attitude was reinforced by most of the fiction and art (with some exceptions like Gaunt's Ghosts) where the Guard exist as something for the big bad guys or heros to slaughter effortlessly. A guy from the last gaming group I played in before moving to Europe got pretty upset when a 30 man power blob killed off a 5 man squad of lightning claw Terminators because "Guard should never win in close combat".

This is actually one of the biggest things I used to run into, especially in previous editions. I remember in 4E miraculously beating a mech eldar player one time and him getting miffed because "guard should never beat the Eldar, it's just not fluffy"...

Thankfully this attitude has *mostly* passed as 5th advanced and 6th is upon us, but it's still there with some and IG never being quite on par with other armies until 2009 dating all the way back to 2nd edition didn't help.

I played a starter game against a new-ish guy a couple months ago, just brought a couple infantry platoons with autocanons/grenade launchers and a handful of meltaguns at 500pts but because I brought IG instead of Space Marines or something he thought I was going out of my way to be easy on his Space Marines and though IG would be an easy push-over. After the game he said "I didn't realize they had SO. MANY. GUNS."

[EDMM]

with the new ally rules in the rulebook, guard are looking at just getting stronger. Just look at two HQs in the GK book - karadread and coteaz. for the low price of 112 pts, leafblower is still going strong (coteaz + 3 warrior henchman troops choice). then there is karadread - get an infantry squad stuck into combat with something nasty, and drop OSRs onto them. . .

add to that, they are a go to ally with access to CCS with Astropath & OotF, Marbo, stormtroopers, or a PBS, Vendettas\Valkyries and Hydras.

Oh look! Now the "Leafblower" includes... Inquisitors??

This is perhaps the best indication that the term means ABSOLUTELY nothing at all.

[Iskandar]

The original list described as "Leafblower" included an Inquisitor for Emperor's Tarot.

[SquigBoy Extraordinaire]

Or these people can just taylor their army lists better and stop whinning.
Leaf Blowers only work if you allow them. I play Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and Space Wolves and never lost against Imperial Guard.
Just find a way to play your game instead of playing the opponents game.

Alternatively, play chess, as they are all for armies being the same accross the table.

[Athlan na Dyr]

There are people who hate Guard?

A possible reason might be how none of Cruddace's other codices or army books ever lived up to the Guard Dex, leading to jealousy. Another might be this fabled 'leafblower', whatever the hell that is.
However, one should never forget that prior to the current dex Guard were whipping boys. The old guard of IG players weren't there for list power or to rofl-stomp everyone into the ground with an uber army, but to play the army that appealed to them and list power be damned. Such players, whilst rare, are deserving of a fair measure of respect for sticking it out.
Yes, there will be the new player with his basecoated (if that) infantrymen who merely started the army because the internet said it was powerful. Yes there will be 'those players' who insist on spamming the broken units of a codex in a friendly environment. Unfortunate fact of wargamming is that such people exist in all factions and IG should hardly be singled out for it.
To be perfectly frank, anyone who paints as many blasted infantrymen as a Guard player has to be pretty damn passionate about his force. Let him have his day in the sun at last.

[Haddock]

Sounds like a socially maladjusted chap who wants to feel superior by putting down strangers, but without the intellect to form coherent opinions of his own. They're a common enough type if you hang around gamers long enough.

Best to dismiss him with a laugh.

this could not be a more truer statement. I was sitting in my game store with a friend talking about guard one time. This guy came in and while we were talking, walked up said guard wasn't playable without spaming vendettas or chimeras. He then walked away. Who the hell walks into someone elses conversation says something like that then just walks off. He played his version of leafblower all the time, thus why after that incident, we started calling him dickblower.

[carldooley]

we started calling him dickblower.

I tremble to think of what my group calls me behind my back. Commissar Carl was the start, and they want me to do a fake commercial about 'Commissar Carl and his used tank lot'.

[Haddock]

lol it wasnt the list I cared about so such, it was the guy being the kinda guy that gets named dickblower. Personally I welcome mech guard, my orks have never lost to it. I say the better player wins more often then not. This is a dice game after all.

[TheDoctor]

Why the Guard hate? Because out local Guard player calls me cheesy for full use of Harlequin shenanigans, while he happily fields 4+ Vendettas/Vultures/Valks. Such ************ that Vultures are easily able to blow away my 2 Nightwings.

[Shamana]

I think it boils down to: key units in the codex are undercosted for what they do (or overpowered for what they cost), and some work together very well. They also worked very well with the edition rules for 5E, and I think it hasn't gotten any worse.

5e made transports indispensable, and the guard got an incredible transport - somewhat resilient (better than the rhino from the front), with 2 decent built-in guns, lots of fire points that could now shoot any weapon (not just lasguns), and fairly cheap. It's a dedicated transport, so via platoons the guard players could fields pretty much as many as they wanted. It had also the standard smoke launchers/lights, not that great but something imperial vehicles usually get free and others don't. Note that the Chimera got a huge discount from the 4th codex: the basic 5e codex configuration would cost something like 40 points more in the 4th one and that's before the firepoints change. Yes, I've heard that the chimera wasn't good in 4th, but that was a MAJOR boost, on top of the edition making vehicles better. Some of it actually makes no sense - the codex itself talks about some (most, unless 3 guardsmen could squeze and fire from a top hatch) operating remote lasguns, yet all fire points allow special weapons.

Troops were vital in 5th, and could make the vehicle score: the guard had lots of cheap troops, including some with decent BS (4) and access to special guns. That was good on its own, and worked well with the chimeras. They also had orders - special abilities, a bit like mini-psychic powers, inbuilt in the squad, and almost impossible to foil. Not a gamebreaker in itself, but good and "free" on cheap models. Being able to blob units into a huge horde was also valuable for holding ground and made good use of the cover rules and wound allocation. Adding a commissar with a cloak for unit stealth was just mean.

Tanks: the guard always had good shooting, and in fact should have good armor units - that's part of its schtick. Hard to enjoy it when you have several of those guys firing at you though. For its points, some of the leman russ variants - like the main one - are hard to match: hard armor at the front and sides, big gun but also some secondary ones that don't leave you helpless if one gets blown off. Being a lumbering behemoth let it move and fire, too. Some were crap, granted, but they had the tools they need. They could also take them in squadrons... though that wasn't so great in 5th.

Reserve manipulation: via advisors, guard players could boost reserve rolls or mess up with their opponents quite well, and somewhat cheap.

Fliers: This is what imo pissed a lot of people, and I can't say I disagree. First, fluffwise there was a big thing about how the Imperial guard and the Imperial navy (which includes air force) are separate and kept divided due to the Imperium's propaganda, and now the guard has pseudo-fliers - fast skimmers. This was the first codex to introduce such units, btw, and Cruddace gave the valkyrie a heck of a buff from its FW incarnation to represent the loss of flier status - better armor (+1 to front and sides), extra armor for free, a ton of special rules, and he made it 30% cheaper. Then he made the vendetta and gave it 3 lascannons - normally very expensive guns, and made them twin-linked, which makes them more accurate than SM guns (75% to hit, as opposed to 66 for BS 4 and 50 for regular BS 3). This all cost a total of 30 points - SMs pay more to put a lascannon on a predator. Oh, and both vehicles are transports. Fast, reasonably tough skimmers used to be an Eldar and to a point Tau schtick - now the IG out of nowhere got something that put theirs to shame. The fliers were one of the biggest issues with the guard imo - they could cost 25% more (and the vendetta without transport) and they'd still be good. You could also get them in transports - more on that later.

Hydras: a chimera-chassis tank that had 2 TL autocannons and a heavy bolter that could ignore most jetbike/skimmer cover saves. Skimmers were already not what they used to be, and against some armies this was very, very nasty. Oh, and cheap.

Artillery: the Guard should be among the leaders there, but the manticore was a bit much in non-apocalypse games. Several S10 large blast barrages per shot?

Specialist units and characters: marbo is a great unit assassin, Straken could make the guard surprisingly nasty in melee (the blob option didn't hurt either),

Overall, it made for an army that was unpleasant to deal with for some players, especially if it chose to flood the field in cheap armor - a tactic 5e rewarded. It also had the right tools to deal with such lists.

So how has that all changed in 6th? Overall, cover became worse and shooting became more useful (both due to the cover nerf and overwatch); RF guns were particularly boosted. Guess who is one of the best shooting armies with tons of RF fire on infantry? Vehicles became a bit more fragile, but otoh you can fire overwatch from fire points, so the chimera is still hard to match (though ghost ark does it and more). Vehicle squadrons were significantly buffed due to immobilization no longer destroying a vehicle, and blasts are now full strength against vehicles even if the center is outside the armor - which is good news for russes and manticores. The hydra is still dirt cheap and great against fliers, but now loses out against non-skimmers/fliers. Fliers were the big winner though - after the Vendetta/Valkyrie had a BIG boost in the last codex for NOT being fliers, now they ARE fliers, yet keep all their goodies - and there are pretty few AA guns yet. The current rules make gunships better against fliers than most interceptors, and being able to choose whether to zoom and hover is a bonus over zoom-only aircraft or fast speeders.

Overall, there are some ways to make a guard army very unpleasant for your opponent. Not just hard to beat: actively unpleasant.

[Xerkics]

Oh please point for point... Warriors never make it anywhere near a guardsman when you have like 4+ instand death pie dishes thrown at them per turn and you can have tanks as both fast attack and hs while nid choice of dealing with them is mainly zoanthropes.

The fact that orgryns are t5 is rediculous and just another example of crudfaces idiocy. Just because all the other stuff is so much better doesmt make them bad .

Warriors will cost in excess of 40 points if you want to be able to kill sm with them and tgey might just as well be 1w models as they get targeted with id weapons all the time in which guard is the biggest offender.

[Xerkics]

Nm Venom cannons is the only anti tank weapon in the game that cant blow up a tank with a single shot due to -1. Plus no more outflanking gs to glance tanks. 6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

[PANZERBUNNY]

If people played games on larger tables, the dynamic of the game would change. SHOCK, try putting 2 of the normal sized gaming tables together. More Terrain etc. You get the idea.

[PANZERBUNNY]

If people played games on larger tables, the dynamic of the game would change. SHOCK, try putting 2 of the normal sized gaming tables together. More Terrain etc. You get the idea.

[Damocles8]

Nm Venom cannons is the only anti tank weapon in the game that cant blow up a tank with a single shot due to -1. Plus no more outflanking gs to glance tanks. 6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

How are Venom cannons at -1?

[Gertjan]

How are Venom cannons at -1?

It's part of their rules, they get -1 on the dmg roll when they score a penetrating hit.

[Chem-Dog]

Warriors will cost in excess of 40 points if you want to be able to kill sm with them and tgey might just as well be 1w models as they get targeted with id weapons all the time in which guard is the biggest offender.

IF you are fighting Guard, why are your Warriors equipped for dealing with Marines? Anyway, that S10 required for ID isn't the only way to kill Oggies, virtually everyone in the game ignores their 5+ armour as standard, I've lost innumerable Ogryn to Bolters and the like before now simply because every wounding hit is a wound and at Initiative 2, much the same happens in Combat.

6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

Really?! In the game where it's now possible to destroy a tank with just 3 glancing hits, in an army that's chock full of rending (that's AP2 and therefore+1 on the Damage table) and Monstrous Creatures (with "Smash"). In a game where you're never likely to need worse than 3+ to hit a Tank. You're telling me Tyranids got gimped against vehicles? As I read through the rules, I honestly thought most of it would cheer Tyranid players up.

[Tellos]

i've been a guard player since the release of the plastic cadians and always loved playing them.
I always play them as their background suggest, with at least 1 full strength infantry platoon and
at least 2 tanks, these can be of any design(including forge world). When the 5th edition codex came
out and saw they had orders, i was happy, as it fitted the army. However after several games with the
new codex and the whining of my opponent who said they where to powerfull, and even going so far as
to say imperial guard should be banned, the joy was soon over. I basically stopped playing a game of 40K
until we sort things out.

For the part of valkyries and vendetta's they belong to the elysian drop troops and such like, not in a regular
imperial guard army. the same goes for chimera's, a few can be in a normal guard army, or in an army like the
steel legion. I think themed armies are the way to go with it, but with all its strength and weaknesses.
They also should cost a little more, as 55 points for a chimera with weapons is a real drop from a chimera that was
70 points without weapons.

Cheers
Tellos

[Xerkics]

Last edition result 5 wreck 6 blow up. This edition 5 imobilized 6 dead. As its -1 on non open topped you can only ever get immob.