Are army books getting weaker?

**Doommasters** · 18-07-2012, 03:05

Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form

Yes, I agree that was a very nice touch. The flipside of this approach seems to be an overabundance of upgrades that are either completely overpriced or useless or both. We all tend to forget the bad things and hold the good memories dear, but if you need a reminder just look at Wood Elves and see how bad they really are. And pretty much all books were like that; for every book there was a very short list of 'usable' options and the rest just wasn't viable. 8th may be a little over the top but at least it restored fun to the game. And it was Mat Ward who did it, so give him credit for once. Now the ultimate irony would be if he were to eventually bring about the end of the world he created by writing another one of his 'masterpieces'... any word on who is writing the new Daemons book yet? He may be a Chaos sleeper agent after all. This is the stuff legends are made from; it's almost religious...

Agree with this and I pray they gun down the sleeper agent before he strikes. In saying that I would anticpate Warriors of Chaos to be of equal powerlevel to OK and I they tone down warriors and chosen abuse while brining up the other units that never get used it will be another 8th edition success story.

**Snake1311** · 18-07-2012, 07:37

Originally Posted by Doommasters

Agree with this and I pray they gun down the sleeper agent before he strikes. In saying that I would anticpate Warriors of Chaos to be of equal powerlevel to OK and I they tone down warriors and chosen abuse while brining up the other units that never get used it will be another 8th edition success story.

Considering Ogres are considered the top 8th book up to this point, I'd imagine WoC to be slightly weaker (than them), otherwise we get power creep and thats sad

**Doommasters** · 18-07-2012, 08:36

Originally Posted by Snake1311

Considering Ogres are considered the top 8th book up to this point, I'd imagine WoC to be slightly weaker (than them), otherwise we get power creep and thats sad

I know but I get that gut feeling.......Warriors of Chaos is their baby and a cash cow. If I was GW I would rather have WoC on the slightly powerful side than risk them being 'perceived' as under powered. Obviously being equal to Ogres would probably be the best outcome from GW perspective to avoid blatant power creep but it is hard to go past the fact they will want this book especially to be a huge success.

**Snake1311** · 18-07-2012, 08:44

Yeah, but its their baby and cash cow mostly for easily excitable kids, who see epic statlines and start drooling :P doesn't mean the army has to smash face in competitive play with relatively low effort (like the triple fang list kinda does now <.< >.>).

The two aren't mutualy exclusive. Stupid example (as in, won't happen and is ridiculous) would be to give the entire army compulsary frenzy - casuals will think its OP, competitive gamers will frown.

**Doommasters** · 18-07-2012, 08:48

Originally Posted by Snake1311

Yeah, but its their baby and cash cow mostly for easily excitable kids, who see epic statlines and start drooling :P doesn't mean the army has to smash face in competitive play with relatively low effort (like the triple fang list kinda does now <.< >.>).

The two aren't mutualy exclusive. Stupid example (as in, won't happen and is ridiculous) would be to give the entire army compulsary frenzy - casuals will think its OP, competitive gamers will frown.

Not arguing with you and I hope they get it perfectly right for everyone's sake......I just have a funny feeling they will be just as powerful as OK that is all.

**Ultimate Life Form** · 18-07-2012, 09:03

I have hopes GW have finally realized that balanced armies >> handing out special rules in bucketloads. Warriors of Chaos may (and also should) have awesome statlines, but that should also be enough to help them along if executed properly. We need no garbage like Eye of the Gods that's mostly smoke and mirrors and clutters up the game. Just awesome units and models and a few Chaos upgrades. That really should be enough.

**Oogie boogie boss** · 18-07-2012, 09:09

I'm with Doommasters with this one. As one of the hardest races model-for-model, I can see a power 'spike' with WoC. I don't think it'll lead to a power creep though, as this ed is all about balance and synergy, to great acclaim.
What I think they'll do is nerf certain things (magic lores will be toned down, Hellcannons made less reliable and more expensive, Warshrines changed), make Warriors either slightly less hard or more expensive (same with Chosen) and make Marauder units cheaper to make them more desirable. Overall it'll still be probably the most powerful 8th ed book yet, but it will be more balanced than it is and won't lead to a power creep.

**Ultimate Life Form** · 18-07-2012, 09:16

Originally Posted by Oogie boogie boss

Overall it'll still be probably the most powerful 8th ed book yet, but it will be more balanced than it is and won't lead to a power creep.

There is nothing wrong with some army books being stronger than others as long as it doesn't exceed a certain degree. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve anyway and could only guaranteed by all players using the same units from the same book which no one wants. Anyone who can read can see from the very beginning that WoC pack a punch, and that's how it should be. They have their weakpoints, too, and clever players can exploit those. Problems start when authors of subsequent books think they absolutely need to surpass that margin and think they have to give casual players obvious and easy counters to everything and start an arms race where the latest army book always must beat everything else in terms of sheer power. That would be very, very bad.

**yabbadabba** · 18-07-2012, 09:28

I don't think you will see too much of a spike; WFB Daemons was a deliberate attempt to see what happens when you put out an OTT army list in the community. Simple answer was that tournaments didn't suddenly become 100% daemons. So GW knows that pure power does not sell.

**Nymie_the_Pooh** · 18-07-2012, 09:36

Marauders with great weapons or flails are extremely effective for the points cost. I can't see them going any cheaper unless they change their stat lines or something. They are crazy good right now in my games at least. It's five points a model for a unit with S5 that can horde up cheaply. Not as cheap as Skaven or Goblins, but they are still really good for what you pay for them.

I think with warriors and chosen (along with forsaken) maybe just looking at the cost and a rebalancing of the marks. Tzeentch is insane with parry and EotG shenanigans. Heck, removing or redoing the EotG table might be enough. It would be cool to see a random table for Tzeentch with results like flaming attacks or the unit can channel for an extra die as if it were a wizard or something. Then again, ward save seems fitting, but it's too easy to break it with the current army book. Khorne might be better if it were costed per model than per unit as everybody is taking bigger units now but not paying any more for it. I think Nurgle the rules for Nurgle reflect the fluff. Giving something like a toughness bonus or regeneration seems a bit much to me, but are also fitting the fluff. Right now there is only one unit where I would consider taking the Mark of Slaanesh and that is Marauder Horsemen because they work a lot outside of the general's and BSB range and are the best baiters in the army unless somebody is new enough to where wolves can do the job. If I want to run a Slaneesh list then everything else has no mark except a sorcerer or two for the lore as it is a complete waste of points.

Overall, I am impressed with the army books in 8th so far. 6th was more down to earth, but there weren't nearly as many viable options for many armies. On Chaos Warriors I feel that they could make them underpowered and people would still buy them for the modelling aspects alone. As long as Games Workshop handles the book in the same manner they have the rest of the edition so far then I will be happy. Sure, I'll likely have a few quibbles like I do with all of the books, but my opinion is that this is the most balanced edition I have experienced yet (I came in at the start of sixth and was reading White Dwarf in fifth due to wanting to learn more about the Warhammer world and painting for other games in the same setting I was playing) in terms of how well the individual army books are handled. Sixth was pretty good about making certain there was balance between the army books, but it fell down in that each army usually had one or two really competitive lists with half the books being ignored if you wanted to be taken seriously.

**Rosstifer** · 18-07-2012, 10:19

Originally Posted by Oogie boogie boss

(Hellcannons made less reliable and more expensive, Warshrines changed), make Warriors either slightly less hard or more expensive (same with Chosen) and make Marauder units cheaper to make them more desirable.

I don't think you could make a Hellcannon much less unreliable, they are much weaker than people seem to think. I'd rather have an Ironblaster any day of the week. Or a Warp Lightning Cannon (Any Skaven players willing to barter one with me for Warpstone?

)

Chaos Warriors themselves do not need nerfing, unless Khorne or Tzeentch they're probably about a point overpointed at the moment, no access to rerolls limits them alot. Warshrine shenanigans need to go, not because I think 3++ Chosen are any good (seriously, can't anyone redirect anymore?!), but because it breaks Game mechanics.

I don't see how Marauders could be made any cheaper with their current statline, they are dirt cheap as it stands. Great Weapons on them need to go up a point so you'll see other options, but that's it.

Ogres are almost certainly more powerful than the current WoC book, so hopefully they don't drop the power level of Warriors too much.

**Maoriboy007** · 18-07-2012, 22:46

Originally Posted by yabbadabba

I don't think you will see too much of a spike; WFB Daemons was a deliberate attempt to see what happens when you put out an OTT army list in the community. Simple answer was that tournaments didn't suddenly become 100% daemons. So GW knows that pure power does not sell.

I'm pretty sure they generally dominated most uncomped tournaments that allowed them. Demon comp tended to be pretty heavy and most top players still tended to use them competitively as far as I could tell. You'll always get players who will stick to thier armies regardless of their power level as well, I still give props to OnG and WE players who persevere. I still played TKs until this edition, I'm sorry but I personally think the new book stinks and remains the weakest of this edition to the point that I didn't really enjoy them anymore.