40k Orks to Warmachine playstyle bridge?

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Sorry the title is so confusing.

I recently Acquired an MK I Cygnar Starter set in a trade. It came without cards, but included a fold-out of the MK II rules with 'cards' on the back of the fold-out for the following factions:

Cryx
Cygnar
Khador
and Menoth

I just laminated it so I could write on the back of the rules fold-out with a dry-erase marker.

Now, onto the point. My brother has played Orks in 40k for ages. He has always been very comfortable with the idea of himself as a 'greenskin player.' That is, no futzing around with anything elegant, pretty or normal.

I want his first game of Warmachine to be one where he can implement similar strategies to those that an Ork player would use in 40k. Given the four choices above, who do you think he should proxy his models as?

I'm thinking Menoth. No nonsense, fast enough, hard-hitting, and a good sense of timing makes them shine.

(Aesthetically, it makes sense to suggest Trollbloods. Problem is, I haven't played this game very much and I'm still sort of learning the rules myself! I don't want to commit to learning and simultaneously teaching two rules systems, and I'm eager to try out Warmachine. Hordes can wait until September... :3)

[Falkman]

Beyond battlebox games Menoth is actually quite a complex faction, with lots of model interactions and synergy required to make the most out of your troops. The most straight-forward faction in Warmachine is Khador, they have the least amount of synergistic models and most of their stuff works very well without some kind of support from other models in the army.
If he is interested in playing with lots of warjacks Menoth should be the way to go though.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Awesome. Thanks!

[Makaber]

I don't think the analogy transfers too well in any case: The games play out pretty differently.

[Deadnight]

Sorry the title is so confusing.

I recently Acquired an MK I Cygnar Starter set in a trade. It came without cards, but included a fold-out of the MK II rules with 'cards' on the back of the fold-out for the following factions:

Cryx
Cygnar
Khador
and Menoth

I just laminated it so I could write on the back of the rules fold-out with a dry-erase marker.

Now, onto the point. My brother has played Orks in 40k for ages. He has always been very comfortable with the idea of himself as a 'greenskin player.' That is, no futzing around with anything elegant, pretty or normal.

I want his first game of Warmachine to be one where he can implement similar strategies to those that an Ork player would use in 40k. Given the four choices above, who do you think he should proxy his models as?

I'm thinking Menoth. No nonsense, fast enough, hard-hitting, and a good sense of timing makes them shine.

(Aesthetically, it makes sense to suggest Trollbloods. Problem is, I haven't played this game very much and I'm still sort of learning the rules myself! I don't want to commit to learning and simultaneously teaching two rules systems, and I'm eager to try out Warmachine. Hordes can wait until September... :3)

straight up swaps rarely work im afraid. there really isnt an equivelant of, say, "tau in the iron kingdoms", or "the ultramarines army". When i think of orks, i think of a ramshackle horde of crude vehicles, or a green tide. well, considering the skirmish nature of the game - a horde in warmachine is the equivelant of 1 mob of orks in 40k! - the green tide is out. regarding ramshackle vehicles - again, no transports in the iron kingdoms, so thats gone.

Go beyond the army list. or his 40k faction. seriously, who wants to play a brand spanking new system if all they're gonna play is a port of what they already have? What style of play does he want? alphastriking? attrition? denial? control? ranged? melee? jack heavy? beast heavy? infantry heavy? self sufficiency, or interlocking synnergy?

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Go beyond the army list.

That's what I'm trying to get at here. What plays similarly at a fundamental level? I'm not talking about the feelings of pushing around a green tide or outmaneuvering people with small armies of trukks. I'm talking about which army has qualities that are similar to his orks, and so can be easily picked up in terms of strategy. What has:

1) Power
2) Versatility
3) Creativity (an odd match with #4)
4) Straightforwardness (in terms of focusing on an objective... say, eliminating a warcaster's HP.) and
5) an element of chance

control? ranged? melee? ... self sufficiency,

These four I believe would appeal to him. The model ratio (jack/beast/infantry heavy) is a secondary consideration. Hitting first is completely unimportant as long as, when he hits, it's overwhelming. Defensive attrition/denial would bore him. (That's the only reason I think Khador isn't a better fit than Menoth. The 'jacks might be too tough to take out. Hence, uninteresting.) However, if he could be that sense of impending doom; strong in the end-game, that would be good. Like it takes him a few turns to mobilize but then if the game isn't over by turn 4, he's in a perfect situation to win. That sort of attrition.

I think Falkman pretty much answered my question. But thanks for encouraging me to give it some more thought. I'm more sure than Menoth is right now.

[Deadnight]

That's what I'm trying to get at here. What plays similarly at a fundamental level? I'm not talking about the feelings of pushing around a green tide or outmaneuvering people with small armies of trukks. I'm talking about which army has qualities that are similar to his orks, and so can be easily picked up in terms of strategy. What has:

1) Power
2) Versatility
3) Creativity (an odd match with #4)
4) Straightforwardness (in terms of focusing on an objective... say, eliminating a warcaster's HP.) and
5) an element of chance

.

thats all of them, really. :P you're not making this easy!

I know you've settled on menoth, but apply these to khador.

power. in khador, there is no such thing as excessive force.
versatility. khador dont just do one thing. theyve got magic, ranged, melee etc. they lack debuffing but when they throw out so much raw damage, its a dsecondary concern.
creativity. meet eIrusk (movement rules? heh, i ignore them!) and the old Witch.
straightforwardness. nothing says straightforward like "doom reaver to the face", or "axe to face".
chance. dice happen. and there is epic Butcher with his random focus.

and to be fair, i can probably apply these to most factions. what sold me on khador was the look/fluff of doom reavers and assault kommandos.

These four I believe would appeal to him. The model ratio (jack/beast/infantry heavy) is a secondary consideration. Hitting first is completely unimportant as long as, when he hits, it's overwhelming. Defensive attrition/denial would bore him. (That's the only reason I think Khador isn't a better fit than Menoth. The 'jacks might be too tough to take out. Hence, uninteresting.) However, if he could be that sense of impending doom; strong in the end-game, that would be good. Like it takes him a few turns to mobilize but then if the game isn't over by turn 4, he's in a perfect situation to win. That sort of attrition.

I think Falkman pretty much answered my question. But thanks for encouraging me to give it some more thought. I'm more sure than Menoth is right now.

to be honest though, i'd consider menoth to be the defensive/denial counter attack faction. Khador is the offensive brick faction. and trust me - everything in warmachine can and will die. khador jacks, despite being "the big tough ones" go down just like anything else - its amusing to read PPs boards and the numbers of people who call khador jacks "wimpy", because apparently, "they cant take a hit". they're tough. but in a game where everything can kill everything else, being tough is relative. If anything strong in the end game is something like what Khador's Butcher brings to the table. when the jacks go down, and he's sitting on def19 with the wardog, and arm23, theres not much that can take him down easily!

to be fair, being "strong in the end game" can apply to any faction thats built with an expendible first wave, and a hard hitting second wave. or else just an attritional monster of the kind either Irusk can bring to the table.

[lorelorn]

Reading this thread, I'd recommend either the Mercenaries, or Skorne. Both armies have a feel that is both chaotic and aggressive IMO. Khador and Menoth have the second of these two but not the first.

[toxic_wisdom]

Consider Mercs, starting online with Battle College for information - beyond that Khador can be a straight forwad faction.

[SanguinaryDan]

Khador is certainly the Axe to Face Warmachine faction.

But why not consider Trollbloods? The bigger they are the more powerful. They make use of other peoples weapons. They "look" like orks in many ways. They can also play the face meet axe game with the best of them. And you can get just plain silly with how some of their units work.

[Darwin_green]

honestly, The Thornfall alliance screams orcs. They're a bunch of savage boarmen, Think of the Quillboars from warcraft.

tough rugged troops, borderline insane leaders, and cobbled together warbeast.

the only catch though is they're more of a sideline hordes faction, so they're pretty limited in what's available to them.

[paddyalexander]

Have you shown him the models, artwork & background as well as summerised the overall playstyles of the factions to see which ones he likes the look of the most? You'd be supprised at what some people would choose, a WHFB Vampire player favouring Cygnar over Cryx or a Battletech player picking Skorne are personal examples.

Many people choose factions/armies that differ in style to what they normaly play for their secondary games, it works better as a break from their primary games that way.

[Darwin_green]

now that I think about it, Khador would be the easiest to proxy as.

warboss- the butcher
Ghazkull- kharchev

meganobs- Man-o-wars suits

killa-kan- destroyer or decimator

dredd- behemoth

boys/grotz- winterguard

big gunz- mortar crew

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

My limited experience has been that attrition is a lot harder playstyle to pull off across the board in Warmachine compared to 40K for almost any force outside of the turn a warcaster feats generally speaking. You can make one or two targets rock hard at a time outside of that. Exceptions include things such as the Trollkin bubble which pretty much has to stay in formation or risk losing whatever breaks off. Warmachine is hard to play in a purely defensive manner. Even when buffed up two heavies with a couple of focus each charging into the same thing will remove almost anything in the game on that turn. It's hard to think of a faction that doesn't have a bit of the Ork mindset of charge or be charged. Unless it is a purely dedicated shooting unit with pretty much no melee to speak of then charging is almost always going to be the choice between charging or move and shoot to set up for being charged in the following turn. This is the primary aspect of the game. Well, maneuvering for multiple charges and combos. The player that can maneuver to get the most charges over time is the one that is more likely to win if a caster kill is not an early possibility. It's a bit like chess in that regard because the model that charged has more damage potential than if it was already stuck in or messed up movement due to terrain so while it can engage it might not be able to charge.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

I did kinda let this thread die, but I figured I'd come back and fill everyone in.

He played Khador.

And it was all based on the aesthetic style of the minis. Nothing to do with gameplay at all. He then proxied with killa kans that were armed as WYSIWYG as possible. And after losing against me in the fourth turn, he tells me he had fun and wants some Khador Minis.

I'm gonna be picking up the Warmachine 2-player battle box as soon as I can clear some space off my WIP bench, and giving him the Khador half of the minis. And I'll pick up some long gunners too.