Look out sir and nobz

[Rated_lexxx]

If I have a unit of nobz. One fails it's armor save and FNP. I roll my look out sir and another nob takes the wound does he get FNP

i have looked and couldn't find a reason why it wouldn't

[MajorWesJanson]

I can't either. Seems like a RaW loophole though.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I can't see any reason why it would work. There's no way to take FNP before the wound has been allocated to a model, and no way to take Look Out Sir after a wound has been allocated to a model. FNP will always come after LookOutSir.

[Rated_lexxx]

You can look out sir save or unsaved wounds. You take a wound, fail a armor save. you can now use FNP. fail FNP. Now you look out sir. The new modal has a unsaved wound. You get a FNP roll against a unsaved wound

[Coredump]

Not quite. LOS triggers on the *allocation* of a wound/unsaved wound. You can't just do it anytime you want to.


Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So *no* taking a save and then LOS

[Rated_lexxx]

Your assuming that LOS happens before FNP, but FNP happens when you have a unsaved wound but at the same time you can LOS

Character suffers wound. Character fails armor save. Now we a unsaved wound. Now 2 things are happening. The unsaved wound is now allowing LOS because a unsaved wound has been suffered

But FNP activates when a character suffers a unsaved wound

That is the problem we have 2 things happening at once

[Mr_Rose]

The thing is, "characters" don't 'suffer wounds' units do. Wounds suffered are then allocated to members of the unit in one of two ways:
Either the character has the same save as the unit, in which case he will only be allocated unsaved wounds which you can redirect with LOS to another model and if he passes that model is wounded because it already failed its save.
Or some members of the unit have different saves in which case wounding hits are allocated; if one is allocated to a character he can then either roll LOS or try for a save; if he fails he becomes wounded with no further recourse to LOS.

In both cases, the model the wound is finally allocated to, after reallocation by LOS, may have the opportunity to roll for FNP, but not before and not twice.

[Rated_lexxx]

If units suffer wounds and modals don't, then no one would get FNP because FNP only works when a modal suffers a wound

What's funny I don't plan on using this in games because the intent isn't to allow 2 FNP rolls but when look at it RAW it looks like it does

[kendaop]

As far as I understand it, the unit of Nobz isn't eligible to take a LOS roll in the first place, as none of them are characters. They all have the same stat-line and upgrade options, and don't have a separate profile, so they're all essentially just troopers.

[Bubble Ghost]

Nurgling Chieftain, Coredump and Mr_Rose are right. Look Out Sir comes before saves of any kind. Always. And the model who is actually affected by the wound must try to save against it using their own gear. You don't get to attempt to save using the best armour and then dump off the wound only if you fail - a character can't 'throw' his armour over the rest of the unit.

It says "when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters" you may attempt Look Out Sir. Not when it's suffered, when it's allocated. You don't "allocate" unsaved wounds in mixed save units; the wounds are allocated before they become unsaved. And it's explicit that this allocation stage was when you had to make the Look Out Sir attempt. In a mixed save unit, by the time a wound becomes "unsaved", it has already been "allocated", so it's too late to Look Out Sir.

The phrasing "wound (or unsaved wound)" in the Look Out Sir rules is just distinguishing between the two methods of allocation they describe, one for mixed save units and one for same save units. So the topic is a moot point, you never get to Look Out Sir after a Feel No Pain anyway. It's too late by then.

[NTJ2010]

This is an example of, sure it's a funny observation but in a friendly game you pick up your models and leave if they try that and if it's a tournament get a judge and if the judge agrees then you don't go to that tournament; even if the written rules may allow it, clearly that is too much of a bent rule.

How we play is roll saves and allocate appropriate then feel no pain on the models actually taking the wound.

[Latro_]

As far as I understand it, the unit of Nobz isn't eligible to take a LOS roll in the first place, as none of them are characters. They all have the same stat-line and upgrade options, and don't have a separate profile, so they're all essentially just troopers.

checkout page 413 of the rule book

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Your assuming that LOS happens before FNP...

I'm not assuming it, I proved it. LookOutSir happens when you allocate a wound to model, and the wound is not properly allocated until LookOutSir is done, successfully or otherwise. FNP happens on an unsaved wound that is allocated to a model. There is absolutely no way that FNP can come before LookOutSir. There is a clear timing, here.

[koran]

I had a similar issue with my wolf guard unit. I can see why some people are having issues with LoS but if you play through it with models its a lot easier. I will try to explain with a little diagram.

Lets look at a tau crisis suit armed with a plasma rifle and missile pod (and multitracker so it can fire both) firing at my unit of wolf guard in terminator armour.


Plasma rifle and missile pod-----> {Crisis suit}




Terminator armour---------------------> [WG1]

Terminator armour----------------> [WG2]

Terminator armour and storm shield--->[WG3]

The crisis suit hits and wounds with 1 plasma rifle (AP2) shot and 2 missile pod (AP4) shots.

The controller of the crisis suit gets to decide which order the wounds are allocated (and saved) in. He decides to have the plasma rifle (AP2) shots allocated and taken first.

Normally this would go on WG1 as it is the closes model. But the whole unit is characters (I know there is a little debate over this because of the wording of the FAQ but lets not get into this here) so I can choose if I want to attempt a Look Our Sir to reallocate. As the plasma rifle will not give me my save (except for a useless 5++ save) I want to Look Our Sir. They are normal characters (not independent characters) so gets a 4+ Look Out Sir. I roll a 6 so can reallocate the wound BEFORE any other saves are made. I choose to put the wound on WG3 as he has a storm shield. I try to make my 3++ save and typically roll a 2 so he gets taken out. (I then grumble about never making my storm shield saves).

Next up are the two missile pod wounds. As they are AP4 Im going to get my 2+ save so I dont try to allocate. I roll a 3 and a 1 meaning that one wolf guard dies. As I have not tried to allocate this automatically is WG1 as he is closest.

(I next have to pray that the suit rolls poorly to jump away so the (now on his own) WG2 can have him in close combat )

[Rated_lexxx]

You can do LOS on saved or unsaved wounds. FNP happens when you suffer wounds

We all can agree with this

The timming issue, which I agree is the problem , is that FNP and LOS happen at the same time

So does a modal have a unsaved wound. Yes so now LOS happens

Does a modal have unsaved wound.yes so now FNP happens

I would like to think this will get FAQ/errated (which I am sure we will be told it can't happen) but my faith in GW getting these much needed issues is very small

For example the DE/eldar fortune issue needs a FAQ(not errata because it's obvious that you can't because of the way fourtn svwritten) because I hear this question a lot and many arguments about it

[Infidel]

What?

LoS has NOTHING to do with saves. It happens on allocation. The clause about unsaved wound refers to the "Fast Dice" section. In the case of a complex unit, you allocate a wound, you LoS, you then roll your saves and FNP. When you're dealing with a simple unit, then you simply allocate and then LoS!

Again, LoS happens when you're allocating a wound, not when it becomes unsaved.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

We all can agree with this

Except that nobody agrees with you on this, because it's wrong. Your premises are wrong. Or, more precisely, they're incomplete. That's why your conclusions are all wrong. But you've got to start examining the assumptions you're taking as givens, because they aren't correct.

It's like the rules say walnuts one thing and pecans are another, and you're claiming they're both nuts, so therefore you cannot distinguish. Well, yeah, they are both nuts, but that's not what distinguishes them. What distinguishes them is that one is a walnut and the other is a pecan. And walnuts and pecans cannot be confused, despite the fact that they're both nuts, because the rules don't trigger on them being nuts, they trigger on them being walnuts and pecans respectively.

[madival]

I thought differing saves had to be rolled seprately, but since everyone has the same save you can just roll them all together. The nobs all have the same save and fnp. I asked the same question a few weeks ago and it got a worse response then this XD

[Coredump]

To emphasize, since it appears to be getting missed...

LOS is triggered upon *ALLOCATION* of a wound/unsaved wound. If you allocate a wound, and then make a saving throw, you have missed your opportunity for LOS.

[madival]

To emphasize, since it appears to be getting missed...

LOS is triggered upon *ALLOCATION* of a wound/unsaved wound. If you allocate a wound, and then make a saving throw, you have missed your opportunity for LOS.

Then why does it ever say unsaved wound.