Look out sir and nobz

[Mr_Rose]

Then why does it ever say unsaved wound.

Because sometimes you make saves then allocate wounds, instead of the other way around. in which case you still make the LOS roll on allocation and then, pass or fail, make a FNP roll as appropriate for the model that the wound was finally actually allocated to.
This is most likely to occur in cases where squads have a leader character like a sergeant with the same saves.

[Bubble Ghost]

The Look Out Sir rules are completely unambiguous on when you have to make the roll, i.e. after the wound is allocated. Even if an "unsaved wound" was what lexx thinks it is, it wouldn't matter, because at no stage do you have the opportunity to take a save or Feel No Pain roll for a specific model THEN try for Look Out Sir.

Let's see if this helps. I feel like I've been smashing my head against a giant bag of rusted iron D6s but this should be it:



OK, first of all, the shooting player organises his successful 'to wound' rolls into groups of like wounds (same AP, same strength, same special effects etc), and chooses a group to start with.

Then:

For units with the same saves:

1. take saves against all wounds in this group, and discard those that made successful saves
2. allocate one of the remaining, unsaved wounds to the nearest model
3. THE WOUND HAS BEEN ALLOCATED! YOU MUST LOOK OUT SIR NOW!!
4. Now you know who has been hit, you can take a Feel No Pain roll if the model has it - for either the model that was allocated the wound, or the guy who jumped in the way if a Look Out Sir roll was passed
5. Remove model or record wound suffered if Feel No Pain failed or not present, then return to step 2, unless wound group empty in which case shooter chooses next group
[If every model in the unit has Feel No Pain, you can do it in bulk as part of step 1]

or, for mixed save units:

1. allocate one wound from the chosen group to the nearest model
2. THE WOUND HAS BEEN ALLOCATED! YOU MUST LOOK OUT SIR NOW!!
3. Now you know who has been hit, you can take the relevant saves plus Feel No Pain if the model has it - for either the model that was allocated the wound, or the guy who jumped in the way if a Look Out Sir roll was passed
4. Remove model or record wound suffered if save and Feel No Pain failed, then return to step 1, unless wound group empty in which case shooter chooses next group

[Coredump]

Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So *no* taking a save and then LOS

[Loki Prime]

LOS is a trigger that happens when something specific happens, i.e allocation. You can only LoS immediately when the trigger happens.

Examples.

1. Allocate wound (mixed armor) or unsaved wound (same save armor)
2. You can now choose to take hits on closest model or LoS if closest model is a char as the "allocation" trigger happens as we are deciding where the hits go.
3. You throw dice for the save without rolling for LoS and fail.
4. Can you LoS Now ?, No you have not just "allocated" a wound, you have failed a save. The wound has become unsaved but has not be "Allocated" as an unsaved wound it was a failed save and thus changing from being a wound to an unsaved wound, so there is no "allocation" at this point, you are not deciding where a hit goes, you are deciding if the hit models armor saves him or not.
5. If the Character has a feel no pain he now rolls and fails. Can you LoS ? No you have not just "allocated" a wound you have failed a feel no pian roll (and before that you failed a save) and are now two steps past the "allocation".

As has been pointed out quite well before by several people already you only LoS when deciding which models are hit by "allocating wounds" (same save) or "Unsaved wounds" (mixed armor) after rolling saves and feel no pain you are two steps past allocating so its no longer possible. The reason it says unsaved wounds is that if all models in a unit have same save then the rules state you roll all saves before allocating. If the LoS didnt state unsaved wounds as well as wounds then you couldn't use LoS in these units. It is NOT giving you permission to takes saves and feel no pain and then decide to move the wound (I highly doubt a space marine could dive inside his commanders power armor and take the bullet for him once the shot has already penetrated it and even less likely he can dive under his skin once his commander has "felt the pain" of the bullet entering him)

[alextroy]

A key point that needs to be remembered is that an Unsaved Wound referred to in Look Out, Sir is not a wound that was allocated to a model and a Saving Throw was failed on. It is actually the exact reverse, a unallocated wound on a unit for which the Saving Throw has been failed. See page 15, Take Saving Throws.

[Infidel]

Glad it took much less time for folks on this board to come to the same conclusion than my LGS people.

[Coredump]

Don't be too sure. This has come up just about every day since the book came out; it keeps getting answered, but it keeps coming up...

[Quaade]

If units suffer wounds and modals don't, then no one would get FNP because FNP only works when a modal suffers a wound

What's funny I don't plan on using this in games because the intent isn't to allow 2 FNP rolls but when look at it RAW it looks like it does

It looks that way because you want it to look that way.

Feel No Pain is not a save and nowhere in the rules for FNP is it defined as a save, it's just a roll to ignore an unsaved wound, so even under RAW, you cannot keep bouncing it around untill someone passes his FNP.

Likewise if you have something that allows you to reroll your failed saves, it doesn't work on failed FNP rolls.

[Scribe of Khorne]

As of now, Nobz even in a Unit of Nobz, are characters. If this changes or not is irrelevant as that is the current environment until FAQ/Errata hits them (and Paladins), like it already has Wolf Guard.

1. Each MODEL in the UNIT is a character and so upon ALLOCATION of the wound (singular) prior to saves, you decide to LOS!
2. Do you pass that LOS! if so, you allocate the Wound (that no saves have been made against) to an eligible MODEL in the UNIT.
3. That MODEL gets its Saves (Invuln, or Armour) and if failed, checks for FNP (does it double you out?) and can attempt those as well.
4. The Wound if getting through is applied to the MODEL allocated to, subtracting one from the remaining wounds.
5. If there are more wounds to roll for in the Wound Pool, you allocate to the closest MODEL, and begin at step one.

Its very simple really, until you try and abstract the system to account for speed rolling, which you can still choose to do if you dont want to LOS!

Therefore as a Character MODEL with FNP you do get 3 ways to avoid the damage if in a UNIT.

1. LOS!
2. Save/Save++
3. FnP

If you fail all those, you eat the wound, and move on to the next in the Wound Pool.

EDIT: Its really just adding chance (4+ or 2+) to 5th Edition Multi-Wound, Unique Equipment Wound Allocation. Otherwise, functionally Nobz and Paladins are as they where before until they choose to nerf them.

[Da Reddaneks]

Nurgling Chieftain, Coredump and Mr_Rose are right.

Thats pretty much it.

[Haddock]

I'm not assuming it, I proved it. LookOutSir happens when you allocate a wound to model, and the wound is not properly allocated until LookOutSir is done, successfully or otherwise. FNP happens on an unsaved wound that is allocated to a model. There is absolutely no way that FNP can come before LookOutSir. There is a clear timing, here.

On page 15 There is an order in which you resolve wounds. 1. allocate the wound to the closest model. 2. take saves is any. 3. "Next, allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. reduce that model's Wounds by 1." (taken from the ALLOCATE Unsaved wounds & remove Casualties section).

Here is the timing, 1st the wound is allocated, then it is resolved. Look out sir say on page 16 when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters....FNP says when the model suffers the unsaved wound...

I looks to me as LOS triggers on the allotment, FNP on the suffering of the wound. That is very clear to me.

I want to also add in this bit about the timing. On page 15 The word allocate is used in reference to the initial wound dealt and the unsaved wound. I can not speak for the intention of GW on this matter but as far as the the wording is concerned its pretty clear what is being said. You allocate a wound after you roll to wound, you allocate a wound after you fail the save. LOS says after a wound or unsaved wound is allocated you can choose to LOS. Again, very clear.