"Looking at" power weapons and modeling for advantage?

[Lord Inquisitor]

I think designating power weapons in the list is a good idea too. But really I don't think you'd ever notice if someone was cherry-picking at deployment, nor is there really anything you can do about it. Possibly at a tournament setting (since the same list is used every game it seems reasonable to expect the same models to be used!) but otherwise, what are you going to say?

"This guy has a power maul?"
"Yep, right there on the model."
"Is that on your list?"
"No, it just says power weapon."
"Weren't you using a guy last week that had a power sword!?"
"Uh... yeah? So what?"

Really, there's not going to be an easy way to tell if he's breaking out the power mauls for you because you play IG or power axes if you put down terminators (well, it might be a bit obvious if it's a whole squad of chaos terminators) or whether it's just a coincidence.

Ultimately it's a pretty minor advantage/disadvantage so it probably isn't worth getting upset about. Obviously with a regular group you can just agree to have the specific weapon types down on your list or at least pick the models before you know what you're facing.

[insectum7]

No, I agree. Couldn't do much about it at all if people wanted to hot-swap their power weapons per battle. I don't think I would even mind it too much in most cases, esp. Chaos Terminators. It's easy enough to reason that a champion would choose an axe over a sword on any given day. But it's a break from the usual expectations.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I've been pondering power mauls. Are they better than power swords? Clearly they are better against 2+ saves, and they're better against 4+ or worse saves. That only leaves 3+ saves:

2 attacks, S4 AP3, should average 0.5 wounds
2 attacks, S6 AP4, should average 0.28 wounds

Okay they're about half as good against T4 3+. So there is still value in power swords but only against 3+ saves.

[Azeroth133]

Mauls have a place, but honestly unless I took the time to magnatize my models so I can change them once i know what the other amry is I will likely stick with swords.
Mauls are better vs nil-4+ and 2+.
But with so much 3+ on most tables its hard not to take the bladed weapons.

[Aegius]

Except the book defines the Rules as going from pp 2-132

I am not surprised that the "Hobby" section talks about modifying models. It also talks about making scenery...



And even then, almost every example is cosmetic. They added a loin-cloth, or used a different head/helmet. I have yet to notice anything that would have a game effect.

Hmmm........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB6bk...feature=fvwrel

obvious troll is obvious.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

So there is still value in power swords but only against 3+ saves.

I.e., "only" against most things. Nah, I'm happy to leave my Chaos Terminators as the mix of power mauls and power axes (and occasional chainfist) they are now.

[sverigesson]

I think designating power weapons in the list is a good idea too. But really I don't think you'd ever notice if someone was cherry-picking at deployment, nor is there really anything you can do about it. Possibly at a tournament setting (since the same list is used every game it seems reasonable to expect the same models to be used!) but otherwise, what are you going to say?

"This guy has a power maul?"
"Yep, right there on the model."
"Is that on your list?"
"No, it just says power weapon."
"Weren't you using a guy last week that had a power sword!?"
"Uh... yeah? So what?"

Really, there's not going to be an easy way to tell if he's breaking out the power mauls for you because you play IG or power axes if you put down terminators (well, it might be a bit obvious if it's a whole squad of chaos terminators) or whether it's just a coincidence.

Ultimately it's a pretty minor advantage/disadvantage so it probably isn't worth getting upset about. Obviously with a regular group you can just agree to have the specific weapon types down on your list or at least pick the models before you know what you're facing.

Agree agree agree. It is a good player's responsibility to have a well written, legible and comprehensive list. So if someone brought a list that just said "Power weapon" and didn't have the stat line, I'd probably be inclined to say, "Hey, make your list better next time so we don't have to look up your weapon's statline every dang time." And if their list said "Power axe and they had magnetized arms and were trying to play them as power swords, I'd tell them to put on the axes and pay more attention to their list making next time.

End rant.

[EDMM]

Do your own that don't look like an axe, halberd, spear, lance, fist, claws, mace or any identifiable weapon.

Use it as something different each turn!

[Stonerhino]

lol a Swiss Army Power weapon.

[de Selby]

First of all I'm going to say that this is currently my first pick for worst written rule in 6th edition.

Secondly I'm going to try and answer the question going by designers intent, because I don't think we can interpret the RAW with any confidence and the first answer is always 'whatever your gaming group agrees/houserules is fine'.

I think what GW is doing (what they are always doing, really) is trying to support their miniatures with rules, not the other way around. So the intention of 'tell what the weapon is by looking at it' is to allow you to use your citadel miniatures in an intuitive way (what they call 'associative' rules). If the intention was just to give universal options they could have said that without any mention of 'looking at the model', the way all other rules and options and list-building decisions are set out.

In some cases they've locked down what weapon is available going by the current model (which is 'dissociative' for people with classic models armed differently). For many imperial units the available kit(s) gives you options in assembly and I believe the rules are intended to support these options. So if the current kit comes with swords and axes I think you can use swords and axes and have confidence your unit will remain legal thru any future FAQs and clarifications. I reckon you can even use a different mix of swords and axes than actually come in the kit and still be alright, because these parts were made for these models and no more accounting is required.

What about converting them to have lances? I don't think (though I'm unsure) that this is actually allowed. In their infinite wisdom GW has managed to introduce a new way in which the physical form of the model affects its performance in the game, and in previous cases that I can think of (crouching wraithlords getting screening, battlewagons with super-wide dethrollas) converting to produce a rules effect (as opposed to making a list-building decision based on paying points or selecting from explicit options, then modelling to fit) has been frowned upon or outright banned.

If you're working with a unit for which a power weapon option exists in the list but without a model, then you can only fulfil the requirements of WYSIWYG by converting so I think you really can pick what you want the model to have. At least until GW releases a kit and defines the options.

[Mordax Praetorian]

If you're working with a unit for which a power weapon option exists in the list but without a model, then you can only fulfil the requirements of WYSIWYG by converting so I think you really can pick what you want the model to have. At least until GW releases a kit and defines the options.

I don't think its acceptable simply to interpret the rules one way for some units and a different way for others

No game designer sits down to write a rule and says "aha, if I write it this way then it could mean 2 different things, and I know our playerbase is clairvoyant enough to know which one I intended in different cases"

Every time a game designer writes a rule, it is written with a specific meaning in mind and with the intent that said rule can only communicate that one specific meaning - it is supposed to be one rule that applies the same in every instance

GW do a very poor job of this, to an extent this is because because they look at their documents with a different perspective than their players do, in this case "the model" is likely the part that has a more well defined meaning when designers talk to each other in the studio, and that lingo looks to have crept in.

Rest assured that every single rule written for every single everything was written with a specific meaning in mind, not 2

[mishari26]

I think the intent of the rule was for the power weapon choice to be static and stated in the list. Not a "swiss power-knife"

so I'd house-rule it in any event I may run that the type of powerweapon has to be specified on the list.

[Capamaru]

First of all I'm going to say that this is currently my first pick for worst written rule in 6th edition.

I got to agree with you. This has got to be the most retarded rule GW has released in 6th edition! How on earth they came up with it?! Why am I supposed to keep pictures of every sprue available in order to find out if the model came with an axe and a sword or only an axe?
Since power axe is a different piece of equipment shouldn't the codex clearly state if the model can be equipped with it and not just leave it to the modeling aspect of the game to represent what a model is armed with? I don't give a damn what they say I am gonna find 10 old banshee exarchs and use them as my banshee power axe squad waiting for anyone to tell me that this is not legal.... with an axe behind my back! If you think it for a while it is kinda of a bad joke, a stupid prank or something.
Player: Look at my termi squad converted with cool swords from fantasy! They cost me like a $gazilion$ since I had to buy a ton of parts and being painting them for ages but they are uber cool...
GW: Well I guess you gonna have to buy clippers and some axes, or even better a new termi squad and start over! Hahahha got you converting monkeyboy!!

[Lord-Caerolion]

I got to agree with you. This has got to be the most retarded rule GW has released in 6th edition! How on earth they came up with it?! Why am I supposed to keep pictures of every sprue available in order to find out if the model came with an axe and a sword or only an axe?
Since power axe is a different piece of equipment shouldn't the codex clearly state if the model can be equipped with it and not just leave it to the modeling aspect of the game to represent what a model is armed with? I don't give a damn what they say I am gonna find 10 old banshee exarchs and use them as my banshee power axe squad waiting for anyone to tell me that this is not legal.... with an axe behind my back! If you think it for a while it is kinda of a bad joke, a stupid prank or something.
Player: Look at my termi squad converted with cool swords from fantasy! They cost me like a $gazilion$ since I had to buy a ton of parts and being painting them for ages but they are uber cool...
GW: Well I guess you gonna have to buy clippers and some axes, or even better a new termi squad and start over! Hahahha got you converting monkeyboy!!

You do realise that the rules are written so that you can pick which sort of power weapon you want, right? That they specifically went back and changed instances of lists giving the option to only pick a power sword into picking a power weapon?

If a model can have a power weapon, that weapon can be a power axe. There is no limitation whatsoever in the rules. The only restriction is that the model that you use must be equipped with the sort of power weapon you're saying it has. You can't say "this guys got a power axe" and have him armed with a sword.

[Capamaru]

You do realise that the rules are written so that you can pick which sort of power weapon you want, right? That they specifically went back and changed instances of lists giving the option to only pick a power sword into picking a power weapon?

If a model can have a power weapon, that weapon can be a power axe. There is no limitation whatsoever in the rules. The only restriction is that the model that you use must be equipped with the sort of power weapon you're saying it has. You can't say "this guys got a power axe" and have him armed with a sword.

So how comes and banshees cannot wield axes according to this? I tell you the rule is completely retarded!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...tudio-Open-Day

[Mr_Rose]

So how comes and banshees cannot wield axes according to this? I tell you the rule is completely retarded!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...tudio-Open-Day

I would have thought that was obvious: There are two entries for the unit, one in the bestiary and one in the army list. They conflict, so the conflict needs clarification. Why is that "retarded"?

[Lord Inquisitor]

I.e., "only" against most things.

Well, yeah. Power mauls are better than power swords in every case except the most common one.

I got to agree with you. This has got to be the most retarded rule GW has released in 6th edition! How on earth they came up with it?! Why am I supposed to keep pictures of every sprue available in order to find out if the model came with an axe and a sword or only an axe?

Who said anything about "weapons on the sprue" or "what the model came with"?

The rule is clear. If the model is equipped with a "power weapon" then you look to the model. If your model has a "power axe" on it, then it has a power axe. Nothing anywhere says it needs to be part of the "official sprue" unless we assume conversions are illegal, which we've gone over already in this thread.

Since power axe is a different piece of equipment shouldn't the codex clearly state if the model can be equipped with it and not just leave it to the modeling aspect of the game to represent what a model is armed with? I don't give a damn what they say I am gonna find 10 old banshee exarchs and use them as my banshee power axe squad waiting for anyone to tell me that this is not legal.... with an axe behind my back! If you think it for a while it is kinda of a bad joke, a stupid prank or something.

I'm confused by this.

Again, imagine the rule as follows. I can give my Aspiring Champion a power weapon for 15 points, from the following list: power axe, power maul, power lance or power sword. Is that better? It's functionally identical.

I mean, deployment shenanigans aside, that's exactly what they're saying. If I'm buying a Sternguard Veteran Squad I can equip my Sergeant with:

- Chainsword (free)
- Power Maul (15 points)
- Power Lance (15 points)
- Power Sword (15 points)
- Power Axe (15 points)
- Lightning Claw (15 points)
- Plasma pistol (15 points)
- Power Fist (25 points)

Any and all upgrades need to be shown on the model. That's basically exactly the same as saying if I give my Sternguard Sergeant a generic "power weapon" for 15 points and then pick what subtype I have by looking at what the model is equipped with. Since I choose my models I choose my power weapon.

Seems to me everyone's got upset over nothing, merely the way GW decided to word the rule based on the model rather than saying "any model equipped with a 'power weapon' must choose which type of weapon it is and the correct weapon must be modeled" which would have been fine I'm sure.

Player: Look at my termi squad converted with cool swords from fantasy! They cost me like a $gazilion$ since I had to buy a ton of parts and being painting them for ages but they are uber cool...
GW: Well I guess you gonna have to buy clippers and some axes, or even better a new termi squad and start over! Hahahha got you converting monkeyboy!!

Why on earth would my Chaos Marines equipped with WFB-based weapons no longer be legal? (Which I do have, incidentally).

[de Selby]

Rest assured that every single rule written for every single everything was written with a specific meaning in mind, not 2

It's the same for other units without models where the form of the model influences the game play. As long as there isn't a model, you can build as big a battlewagon as your opponent will let you get away with. Once GW releases an official model that becomes the standard and people will tend to interpret wild departures as modelling for advantage. It always causes headaches.

I don't think they ever had wolf guard with power lances in mind. But I accept I could be wrong.

I *think* that if GW wanted universal options they would have said

'some units come equipped with "power weapons". In this case you can choose from power swords, axes, mauls or lances'

or words to that effect, and not introduced the rule about looking at the model to tell what the weapon is. The only reason I can see for doing that is if you want to allow various types of weapons corresponding to your model range and you don't want to bother FAQing all the types, particularly where several are available for a given unit. Then they further muddy the waters by specifically FAQing some units where only one type of model is *currently* available.

[Haywiregrenade]

The best summary to date. Nice one Lord I

[Lord Inquisitor]

I *think* that if GW wanted universal options they would have said

'some units come equipped with "power weapons". In this case you can choose from power swords, axes, mauls or lances'

or words to that effect, and not introduced the rule about looking at the model to tell what the weapon is.

Is there a difference?

Presuming conversions (reasonable ones) are permitted, let's say there are two ways of phrasing it:
1) You can model your power weapons as you wish but you must use the power weapon rule that corresponds to your model.
2) You can pick whichever power weapon type you wish but it must be displayed on your model.

Is there a difference between the two? GW have clearly gone for a "model driven" approach but it seems functionally identical to a "list driven" approach.

Then they further muddy the waters by specifically FAQing some units where only one type of model is available.

I expect future books to specify types in some cases where it corresponds to the model. I'm not sure why this is an issue. Again, it makes a lot more sense thinking about it from a list perspective not a model perspective. So for Bloodletters they have Hellblades which count as power swords. Sternguard "power weapon" is a shorthand for four distinct upgrades. One can imagine in the future some options will be available to units and some will not. Chaos Terminators might be allowed only Power Axes and Power Mauls in the army list. But for the time being any generic "power weapon" is a shorthand for "choose one of the four types".