Could you supply me with page reference where it says the axes supplied in the GH/WG sprues are frost axes instead of power axes? Or perhaps all the power swords on the sprues were meant to be frost blades instead? The rules have allowed the user a choice of power weapon when none is specified, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, I don't see the problem here.Originally Posted by Coredump
The crucial part of the issue is that only reasonable conversions are usually permitted. Generally where a conversion is such as to change how the model plays (and changing power weapon types is a lot less ambiguous than the size issues that have plagued us in the past) it's considered that the model should 'count as' an unconverted model of that type. Where a unit type exists but no unconverted model of that type exists it would be usual to use parts that best represent the unit described in the list, or invoke 'counts as'. The question is does the type 'wolf guard with power lance' exist? It's not explicitly described, there's no model for it and I don't think you can create the type just by making such a model.
(This is my opinion and I am not claiming that this is the "only truth" to this matter. However, I think that this is how it works)
Let me start from a different point:
How do you build your army list?
1) you get your Codex and see what units and models you would like
2) you then choose what weapons you want to give to those units, "buying" them for point costs as they are listed in the codex.
How do you build your army?
Well you buy, build (and perhaps convert) your models, to show the weapons/upgrades you bought from your codex, don't you? (Converting because how else would you get a Conversion Beamer - armed Techmarine or a Tyranid Harpy? Or even just any combination of equipment mentioned in the codex that is not necessarily supplied in the model/unit box)
It doesn't actually matter what the model ON/IN the box has. Yes, WYSIWYG but as long as it's legal in the codex, it's legal on the model. This clearly isn't modelling for advantage.
Now to the actual matter of power weapons:
In 5th Edition I could just slap an axe, mace, staff or sword onto the model and it would obviously be a power weapon (except for librarians, in which case it obviously was a force weapon).
Now it comes down to which weapon I chose - either when building the models, in case that was before 6th Edition, or when writing the army list. Magnetizing arms is no different to any other weapon (such as heavy weapons). Which you can't do mid-game, for those who suggested this ("Hey I'll just give my Devastators Flamers now instead of Lascannons. I even save some points with that, so I suppose it's okay"), no matter if the swapped weapons cost the same points (as in the case of power weapons) or more/less.
We're back to conversions being illegal if they don't follow the pre-made kits. But how do we determine which has a precedent?
Am I allowed to make Chaos Terminators with power swords? While the Chaos Terminator kit doesn't have them, the Chaos Terminator Lord kit does. It should be noted that Chaos Terminators have an option for Lightning Claws but again, only the Lord kit contains the right arms.Edit: Ah, upon checking, the Chaos Terminator Lord doesn't have a power sword on the sprue. But you get the idea. Can I take one weapon from a given kit in a single army and apply it to another model of the same type even though it isn't the same kit?- Can I put a power maul on my Blood Angel sergeant even though I took the arm from a Dark Angel sprue?
- One of my Chaos Terminators has a "power whip". I've been counting this as a Power Lance as it seems like a weapon best used when closing with the enemy. Is this illegal as Chaos Terminators don't have a Lance option?
- What if I have a pre-existing model with a particular style of power weapon converted before 6th edition but now is a style not available to that unit as a stock model? E.g. a chaos aspiring champion with a terminator power maul.
- What about units that don't actually have a power weapon model? Chaos Raptors, for example, have the option for a power weapon but the only (current) aspiring champ model has lightning claws. If I give my aspiring champ a power weapon how do I determine what the "stock" options are?
- Why doesn't this apply to other weapons? Again, there is no Chaos Raptor model with a power fist. If I select this option, why am I allowed to convert the models to represent it? But I'm not allowed to convert power lances? What about Chaos combi-weapons? I pick one out of the list but there are no chaos combi-plasma models - are conversions illegal?
There's really two options for us.
- We accept that any model with a "power weapon" can select one of the four types providing it is modeled appropriately.
- We try to enforce rules pertaining to "official" model weapon.
(1) is simple. Power weapon = power lance, power sword, power maul, power axe. Pick one and model appropriately. Fair, easy, done.
(2) is a mess. There are huge grey areas and I've given some examples above. It penalises people with perfectly reasonable conversions if their conversions use components from outside their own model range (although exactly how you'd "enforce" this is another matter). It gives big advantages to model ranges with a lot of bits, and is inconsistent with ranges that require conversions to show many of the options.
Ultimately, what are you going to do if I turn up with a power lance on my wolf guard? "Yeah, you can't have that, you'll have to count it as something else, a power sword." At which point we are directly breaking the letter of the rule in the rulebook - somehow we've got to the point where in the interest of the spirit of the rule we're breaking not only the spirit but the letter of the rule. What are your other options? Demand I remove the models or quit the game or call me a cheater if I use them? That might be a tiny bit of an over-reaction.
I don't see any realistic option but (1).
Last edited by Lord Inquisitor; 18-07-2012 at 18:28.
... and then I won.
Lord Inquisitor I think you have hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree more and I couldn't have said it any better myself
Someone on the last page said they couldn't see why GW would have worded it this way if we were allowed a choice, I can't see why GW would word it this way no matter what their intent was
If we can all agree on one thing, I think it is that the rule is very badly written and a clarification is needed. Lets dig up the E-Mail address for the FAQ team and spam them relentlessly.
My suggestions:
If it's a different type of power weapon than the model kit came with then no, except for aesthetic reasons in which case it 'counts as' that model's original weapon.
No except with counts as...
It should count as a weapon that the model kit did come with...
Same problem as bloodletters and howling banshees with axes, GW appears to be making the effort to define types except where the kit comes with a choice of types, but I still think the choice in the kit is intended to be the choice available...
There is no stock model so make one, if an official model comes out then that becomes the standard for any model=function purposes as usual...
The option to take a power fist or combi-plasma arises in the codex, you then build a model to represent the choice you've made in list building. The codex doesn't give a power lance option it gives a power weapon option, once you've chosen a power weapon from the kit then converting a different type is converting for advantage...
What am I going to do? I'm going to raise my eyebrows and move on*. But there are going to be more codexes and FAQs to come in the next few months and years and at some point this is hopefully going to be clarified. It wouldn't at all surprise me if the new chaos dex contains options like "terminators may be armed with a power weapon (axe or maul)" and then your lovingly crafted lance conversions are all for naught. A week ago people were trying to convince me that hyperphase swords were power weapons and therefore GW intended you to be able to convert them into any type. Then the updated electronic version of the codex hit and apparently yes, hyperphase swords are swords. It is usual to interpret these things narrowly. Currently GW has not properly tied down the types associated with units where more than one type exists in the current kit, but we have exactly zero 6th ed codices to refer to and I think the idea of making whatever you want is at best a loophole at this point.
Believe me, I wish the rule for power weapons was an unambiguous choice of 4. It would be much clearer and I could make some space marine knights with lances. I'm not certain that GW will not allow this, but if they intended it they should have just said it.
*initially this sentence contained a threat of elaborate homicidal violence ending "and that's what I call converting for advantage", but I edited myself in case someone took it seriously.
Last edited by de Selby; 18-07-2012 at 19:08.
For what its worth, the WD codex for Sisters of Battle lists Power Swords as an option for their characters...but has been FAQd to read all Power Swords should be Power Weapons.
So maybe the designers are throwing us a bone here, and allowing to equip as we want. Here is an example where we have a specific 6E weapon but was changed to a generic rulebook entry.
"...you don't run internet lists, except for when you make a list and it becomes an internet list..."
Excuse my ignorance.. but where does it say that you can ONLY use the upgrades from the GW kit??
if the rules allow me to have a power lance on my wolfguard terminator.. who gives a damn what the kit has or doesn't have??
The codex says he has a "power weapon". nothing more.
nowhere does it specify what type of power weapon is it. so you can only decide what type it is when you "Look at it". So at the building stage you're free to model it as a power lance.
and once you "Look at it" it gets imbued by the magic of the rules! sort of like pinochio believing he's a real boy..
No, you are not adjacent to yourself.
-T10
They currently sell Sisters models (at least in principle they sell Sisters models...) with various power weapons, so now they have different rules they have to FAQ the option to give you the choice, eg.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...tCatGameStyle=
with maul.
I'm going to summarise my views and bow out because this is taking too much time for something that only attracted my attention because it's such a bizarre way to write rules
1) When creating an army, you build the list and then select or model some miniatures to represent it on the table top
2) In the few cases where model=function (mostly to do with size, until now) the stock model is considered the standard
3) If by using a non-stock model you introduce a change to the model's function, it's usual to have it 'count as' the stock model
4) If no stock model exists then you can convert what you want, but the GW release becomes the standard if and when it appears
If, merely by using a different model to any existing stock model for a unit type, your unit gains different rules effects, that would typically be deprecated as 'modelling for advantage'
Maybe this reasoning does not apply in this case, but we're only a few weeks in so I advise against doing any conversions to gain alternate power weapon rules until we've seen more codices or design notes and seen more clearly what they intend.
It is just ridiculous to say "well it's no problem to put a [codex entry that has no model-equivalent] onto your model, but you can't possibly put a power lance on it, because it's not in one of the sprues".
How does this work?
Either
A) If it's in the box (or if there is an alternative model for it) you can use it, if it's not then you can't.
Or
B) If it's in the codex list you can use it, using alternative pieces from other kits.
You can't apply your rule to one thing but not the other.
Yes, I believe that in future codex entries will be things like "can have a power mace or power sword" or something similar, but until then I am absolutely certain that you do not have to stick to what's in the box, otherwise all the fancy equipment for Dark Eldar HQs just went out the window.
I don't even get how this is being discussed. You pick your army list from a codex, not from the model box.
You pick an army list then you are responsible for adequately modelling that army on the battlefield. Moddeling for advantage is where you adjust a model to try to effect the way specific rules effect your model, normally relating to abusing base sizes for coherency/assault and posing for cover. That's entirely different from conversions to accurately reflect a legally selected army. Boxes can have whatever the hell they like in them, it's irrelevant. You select your army from a codex, not a box.
So let me get this absolutely straight: you are saying that I should not use the weapon on the model, but instead choose another weapon from the list that is more acceptable to you, despite the fact that it contradicts the explicit rule.
Without wanting to state this overly strongly this is, simply, against the rules. The rule is that I choose the power weapon type that corresponds to the model!
Same problem as bloodletters and howling banshees with axes, GW appears to be making the effort to define types except where the kit comes with a choice of types, but I still think the choice in the kit is intended to be the choice available...There is here a double standard. The army list gives the option for a "power weapon". There are four types of power weapon, just as there are three types of combi-weapon. Yet if there are no model for my particular flavour of combi-weapon, I am apparently okay to kitbash it. But if I kitbash the power weapon, it is against the spirit of the rules? Similarly, I can give a Raptor Champion any kind of power weapon because there is no model, but I can't give a Plague Marine champion anything but a power sword because there's only that model? What about Forgeworld, they do a number of components suitable for several ranges. Do they count?There is no stock model so make one, if an official model comes out then that becomes the standard for any model=function purposes as usual...
The option to take a power fist or combi-plasma arises in the codex, you then build a model to represent the choice you've made in list building. The codex doesn't give a power lance option it gives a power weapon option, once you've chosen a power weapon from the kit then converting a different type is converting for advantage...
Look at things this way:What am I going to do? I'm going to raise my eyebrows and move on*.
You're starting with the a priori assumption that anything that isn't a stock model is not intended and that a conversion somehow violates the spirit of the rule. However:
- The rulebook has a chapter showing conversions including weaponswaps and provides it as an encouraged part of the hobby.
- The letter of the rule is quite clear - the model's weapons are used to determine which power weapon entry it uses.
- There's nothing there - anywhere - to suggest that a model with a "power weapon" is not intended to have access to the four types. With the exception of any unit specifically stated to have a given type via the FAQ, there's absolutely no basis for the assumption that a model can't be converted to have any given weapon type.
Put simply, before this thread, I simply wouldn't have even thought twice about wolf guard with power lances or what have you. If you're willing to convert up - more power to you I say. But you're going to roll your eyes and make out like I'm cheating if I use my models converted long before 6th to have the weapons shown on the models? Even if I converted them up specially for 6th (which I will - I'm going to wait until the new Chaos Codex before I put clippers to models, but I'm not paying extra for Slaanesh marines for an initiative boost and then giving them all axes to put them at I1!), why should you be able to judge me for that?
You have absolutely nothing written anywhere to back you up, merely a gut feeling that somehow I'm getting some unfair advantage, despite it being quite obvious that the various power weapons are designed to be roughly equal in average power. All are situationally better than others, but all worth about the same overall. If they're all worth 15 points, what's the problem?
I'd much rather base my models on the list. If I buy lightning claws, I model lightning claws whether there is a stock model or not. If I buy a power fist, that may require some conversion but it needs to be shown on the model. Similarly if I buy a power axe for 15 point power weapon, I do not see why it is relevant if there is a stock model of it or not. There being a stock model of power fists or lightning claws has no bearing on whether I can have it, why would it matter for power weapons?
Funny, I think the idea of not being allowed to make a generic power weapon into one of the four permitted types is at best a loophole.I think the idea of making whatever you want is at best a loophole at this point.
Seems to me they intended you to be able to use all four, or they would have said otherwise. The intent seems very clear - if you don't have it otherwise listed in your army list, you refer to whatever the model is carrying. The big question here is "can you convert your models?" The book unfortunately doesn't have any rules on modeling, for advantage or not. There doesn't seem to be any WYSIWYG rule there at all, which seems a very odd omission. I can only imagine it was deliberately left out but I don't really understand why. However, given the chapter on conversions, it seems reasonable to say you can convert. At which point it seems a leap to say you can't convert your power weapon however you wish!Believe me, I wish the rule for power weapons was an unambiguous choice of 4. It would be much clearer and I could make some space marine knights with lances. I'm not certain that GW will not allow this, but if they intended it they should have just said it.
... and then I won.
WYSIWYG rules have generally been in the codices, not the rulebook.
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You've also got to remember that GW has explicitly gone against specifying what sorts of power weapons a model can take, by FAQing several codices to read "power weapon" instead of "power sword" for numerous units, such as the Sisters of Battle and the Blood Angels. That's pretty damning evidence that they're not limiting what sorts of power weapon a model can have based on its stock sculpt.
I thought the only model that had a power axe was the exarch?
It certainly looks like you could currently choose a power weapon to be one of the 4 options. However, I think if modelling a unit it would probably best to choose one of the more likely options based on what is available in the kits etc, as it is quite likely that come the new codices any more outlandish options may find themselves made illegal when lists start specifying what weapons people can choose. Howling Banshees, for example, I would expect to see changed so that they explicitly have "power swords."
I think the new power weapon rules are absolutely ridiculous! "Look at the model" NO, I spent many hours and loads of effort making sure each member of my Wolf Guard army had some sort of an axe, which obviously are all frost axes, because a space wolf should have an axe, its just the way they should look! BUT a space wolf should not strike at initiative 1. I will continue to play all my games with the first thing I say to my opponent being "they all have frost blades, not axes."
Does this make me a bad person? Would you still play me, even though I want my army to look a certain way?
If you can't kill 5+ skaven per turn with chaos warriors you need new dice.
Never argue with an idiot, they will only reduce you to their level, and then proceed to beat you with experience
As long as you are upfront about it, have "power/frost sword" written on your army list, and it applies to all your axes, I'd have no problem. I do agree it bites people that went with certain weapons for the aesthetics in the butt, and I can support that bit of "counts-as".
And I even be ok with a mix of axes-as-swords and axes-as-axes as long as they were clearly distinctive: different power effects painted on them, or something like "All of my Terminators are armed with swords, but the Grey Hunters actually do have axes."
Last edited by WildWeasel; 19-07-2012 at 14:47.
I can't decide if it was funny or sad that I have read all four pages of trolling!
Maybe this will help:
Given that various codices were errata'd to have "Power Weapons" instead of "Power Swords", that's a pretty strong argument.
Last edited by Grentain; 20-07-2012 at 05:05.
Power swords are only mentioned in the fluff section of the Howling Banshee entry, if GW want to restrict Banshees to them they had better put it in the errata because whether they like it or not the rules do let them choose what weapon type.
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