K'daii Destroyer=Heavy Weight Champ of the World?

[Jind_Singh]

Posion - stab that bugger with as much venom as possible!! The ONLY units I have to deal with this brute are my Common Gobbos (with the spider banner), the Arachnork, and any unit I cast my posion spell on.

To be honest Forgeworld has no business messing with Fantasy - Warhammer has been a great edition with:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

And also the add-ons

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands


Now Forgeworld have started their books and FOR THE MOST part are pretty balanced, fun, and add some depth to our beloved hobby...

With some STRONG objections!!

The K'Daii Destroyer is one such stupied beast - were the rules just make it silly.
The Saurus big monster is another one - he's got great stats, has special rules AND for a mere 75 points becomes etheral - Oh - he can also ambush and have swiftstride!

It's crap and we know it - why introduce units that swing the balance so far to one side - it makes no sense that you have to invest considerably more points to deal with a single unit.

The Warhammer Dragon, fluff wise, is one of the most powerful beasts out there - but it can be dealt with.

Hydras and Abombinations even can be dealt with

[themanbelow]

Posion - stab that bugger with as much venom as possible!! The ONLY units I have to deal with this brute are my Common Gobbos (with the spider banner), the Arachnork, and any unit I cast my posion spell on.

To be honest Forgeworld has no business messing with Fantasy - Warhammer has been a great edition with:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

And also the add-ons

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands


Now Forgeworld have started their books and FOR THE MOST part are pretty balanced, fun, and add some depth to our beloved hobby...

With some STRONG objections!!

The K'Daii Destroyer is one such stupied beast - were the rules just make it silly.
The Saurus big monster is another one - he's got great stats, has special rules AND for a mere 75 points becomes etheral - Oh - he can also ambush and have swiftstride!

It's crap and we know it - why introduce units that swing the balance so far to one side - it makes no sense that you have to invest considerably more points to deal with a single unit.

The Warhammer Dragon, fluff wise, is one of the most powerful beasts out there - but it can be dealt with.

Hydras and Abombinations even can be dealt with

Can I recommend you read the whole thread please?

[Confessor_Atol]

Seriously, the argument that "you can never say a specific unit is dramatically undercosted" is a lame one.

While the destroyer is not going to end warhammer, it's clearly a stong monster. Maybe the strongest. That's the point of the thread. While I think the CD list could have used more playtesting, no one has said that the army is broken.

Themanbelow is obviously troll-baiting. Check the post-count on his account, it looks like he set it up just to piss in this thread.

[tvandyke]

Yes, we're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum. This thread is about the Destroyer, not the Chaos Dwarfs in general. But yes, I would rather face two hydra than one destroyer. At least within the context of their own lists. I can deal with hydra fairly easily, even two hydra. I've never had even two hydra destroy three quarters of my army on their own.

I'm also amused that "what you should really be comparing" is the Destroyer to the single best value monster in the game (at least, not counting the Destroyer). Hydra are widely considered massively undercosted. Considering in Storm of Magic they cost about 50% more and that's without the benefits of M&H, it's pretty clear they're severely underpointed and won't be staying that cheap when DE are redone. "Look, the Destroyer isn't that bad if you compare it to one of the most broken monster units in the game!"

So, basically what you're saying is that if you and I played and you wiped my army off the table top (which has been happening to me at rate greater than my Warriors, Daemons or Ravening Hordes Chaos Dwarfs), the first thing out of your mouth would be "your army is horrible, that Destroyer has no place in this game"? I find it funny. The context in which you're going to be facing the Destroyer matters. I'm sorry, but we play armies versus armies. Your not placing 325 points of troops on the table and I'm placing a Destroyer to face it. We're both putting armies on the table. What makes the Abomination and Hydra so horrible isn't that the monsters themselves are awesome, it's the rest of the army along side those mosters are also nasty. There's a lot of troops in the CD list that are really overpriced. Basically all the weapon option upgrades for the core Chaos Dwarfs are ridiculous. Bull Centaurs and Fireborn are decent but expensive for what they offer. I've played some really nasty armies in my time. I remember using the Ravening Hordes Daemon list (all Nurgle) and had 19 casting dice at my disposel. With a combination of Heavens and Shadow magic I was able to fly my Great Unclean One into the flank of units in a single turn 28" away (Steed of Shadows and Unseen Lurker). This was in addition to my 3 blocks of Plagubearers that were each counted as level 4 casters. That was an army that I had to apologize for. The LOA list? Even with the Destroyer I'm not apologizing for it. It's not even close to the filth that most other players are putting on the table at the tournaments I attend and it's not for lack of trying. I'm honestly trying to build the most competitive list I can and it's proven not very successful. As good as the Destroyer is, I'm beginning to believe I might be able to build a more successful list without it. If this proves true, I can guarantee everyone will be saying how toned down my list is when in reality it's harder. Funny how that works.

[themanbelow]

Seriously, the argument that "you can never say a specific unit is dramatically undercosted" is a lame one.

While the destroyer is not going to end warhammer, it's clearly a stong monster. Maybe the strongest. That's the point of the thread. While I think the CD list could have used more playtesting, no one has said that the army is broken.

Themanbelow is obviously troll-baiting. Check the post-count on his account, it looks like he set it up just to piss in this thread.

Not at all. Post count has nothing to do with anything (other than deflecting a discussion). The insinuation was that FW messed up with this unit (various quotes that I can't be bothered to repeat) and my argument was that FW didn't mess up as it doesn't effect the game in anyway because it balances out the CD army, hence why you need context when applying such an opinion.

I tried to develop the discussion in a way that makes people understand that it doesn't matter if item X is wrong, because we don't play a game with just one unit. That is why I said that with the KD the CD is not an overpowered army (I am having to repeat myself here).

I'm interested to know the background to such 'broken' opinions. I'd hazard a guess that it is due to either a game they heard about or a game they played (only one) where they didn't know how to deal with it and rather than learnign how to next time, decide to form an opinion that the item was a mistake.

Perhaps FW should nerf it and just make CD an auto win, that way those complaining will have one less thing to worry about.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Well obviously. Perhaps we should break down the movement of a chaos Furies as broken or the left wheel of a chariot. We don't play games of Destroyer vs something else, we play a game inclusive of a variety of different units.

I think you are missing the context of this single unit alongside its army.

Would you agree that Teclis isn't overpowered then, because basic high elves are overcosted?

This is exactly analogous. I played plenty of Teclis lists at Ard Boyz and even with Teclis HE were merely okay in that environment. They're beatable, strong but beatable. But you have to get through Teclis to win. And Teclis can win the game almost single-handedly. Same with the Destroyer.

But are we going to say Teclis isn't overpowered for his points? Can we not say he is overpowered for his cost without someone popping out of the woodwork to say "yeah but spearelves are nine points a model so it's okay!"

Come back to me when the destroyer single handedly makes Chaos Dwarfs an overpowered army..........

The reality isn't that far off. I've had the Destroyer wipe out three quarters of my army in points by itself. I surrounded it, charged it with great-weapon-wielding ogres. I threw in characters with fire wards, I threw in a guy with the OTS. It basically killed them all. In all honesty, for that game, I might as well have been playing only the Destroyer. That's stupid.

There's simply nothing you can do. Nothing. Warhammer is pointless. Sell your models and leave the hobby now, before it's too late.

My gripe with it is actually not that far off. It's fairly resistant to any "normal" strategy you can think of. Throw great weapon troops into it? It kills infantry on a scale no other model can achieve. Cannons? Oh, look, the toughest thing in the game bar none versus cannons. It'll eat any Greater Daemon you throw into it for double the points cost. Frenzy might be a weakness - not that bad in an army with a Ld10 general. Trying to block it with chaff is pretty difficult as the damn thing is M9. Megadeath spells are pretty useless as it has I5.

Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.

It's a tough nut and all the tougher in the CD list, where magma cannons and earthshakers are raining death.

So, basically what you're saying is that if you and I played and you wiped my army off the table top (which has been happening to me at rate greater than my Warriors, Daemons or Ravening Hordes Chaos Dwarfs), the first thing out of your mouth would be "your army is horrible, that Destroyer has no place in this game"? I find it funny.

Again, I bring Teclis and that's fine with you because high elves are underpointed?

This rather assumes CD are weak and I don't think so. CD are severely unbalanced (which is not the same as overpowered). Some units are too good, some are rubbish. If you spam the good stuff, CD are very solid indeed. Playing Shandowner's CD with my max-cheese Daemon list the two armies seemed pretty well balanced and CD make a mess of Ogres, who are top of the 8th edition heap.

[themanbelow]

Would you agree that Teclis isn't overpowered then, because basic high elves are overcosted?

This is exactly analogous. I played plenty of Teclis lists at Ard Boyz and even with Teclis HE were merely okay in that environment. They're beatable, strong but beatable. But you have to get through Teclis to win. And Teclis can win the game almost single-handedly. Same with the Destroyer.

But are we going to say Teclis isn't overpowered for his points? Can we not say he is overpowered for his cost without someone popping out of the woodwork to say "yeah but spearelves are nine points a model so it's okay!"


The reality isn't that far off. I've had the Destroyer wipe out three quarters of my army in points by itself. I surrounded it, charged it with great-weapon-wielding ogres. I threw in characters with fire wards, I threw in a guy with the OTS. It basically killed them all. In all honesty, for that game, I might as well have been playing only the Destroyer. That's stupid.


My gripe with it is actually not that far off. It's fairly resistant to any "normal" strategy you can think of. Throw great weapon troops into it? It kills infantry on a scale no other model can achieve. Cannons? Oh, look, the toughest thing in the game bar none versus cannons. It'll eat any Greater Daemon you throw into it for double the points cost. Frenzy might be a weakness - not that bad in an army with a Ld10 general. Trying to block it with chaff is pretty difficult as the damn thing is M9. Megadeath spells are pretty useless as it has I5.

Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.

It's a tough nut and all the tougher in the CD list, where magma cannons and earthshakers are raining death.


Again, I bring Teclis and that's fine with you because high elves are underpointed?

This rather assumes CD are weak and I don't think so. CD are severely unbalanced (which is not the same as overpowered). Some units are too good, some are rubbish. If you spam the good stuff, CD are very solid indeed. Playing Shandowner's CD with my max-cheese Daemon list the two armies seemed pretty well balanced and CD make a mess of Ogres, who are top of the 8th edition heap.

But all these points help reinforce my argument. You've based a whole opinion on one game where you didn't know how to deal with it.

[Lord Inquisitor]

No, I've played a few times with daemons and ogres. I fully understand how to deal with it. I have killed it - if I don't kill it it will eat my army. CD players can expect it to die - if it doesn't die, the enemy is likely all dead. But I don't think I've killed it without suffering far more points than it was worth. I have won against CD, albeit by the skin of my teeth and a bit of purple sunnage.

Indeed, the important aspect to beating CD is not to underestimate the horrific potential of the Destroyer.

[tvandyke]

Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.

Really? Two-thirds? You're losing any credibility you might have had. Did you even bother to read one of my previous posts about what killed off my Destroyer in the 5 games at the Quake City Rumble? It died all 5 games, all before the 3rd turn ended. Did you read that part? A unit of 6 maneaters dispatched it fairly quickly. I didn't make a mess of that Ogre army. How many times have you played against the army? Have you played against it with more than one type of army? I'm trying to give you a perspective from someone who uses the army and isn't having anywhere near the success you seem to think I should be having. Are we living in two different universes? Why is my real life experience with army different than your version? Please, let me know, because I truely want to start enjoying the success I should be having with it. What's the secret? Once I know it, I'll pass it on to the other CD players that are having the same experience I've been having.

[themanbelow]

No, I've played a few times with daemons and ogres. I fully understand how to deal with it. I have killed it - if I don't kill it it will eat my army. CD players can expect it to die - if it doesn't die, the enemy is likely all dead. But I don't think I've killed it without suffering far more points than it was worth. I have won against CD, albeit by the skin of my teeth and a bit of purple sunnage.

Indeed, the important aspect to beating CD is not to underestimate the horrific potential of the Destroyer.

Agreed. But it seems like you've had to learn and then played some good games (and excuse me whilst I bit my lip a little thinking here we have an Ogre player suggesting cheese to a CD player).

[Urgat]

Can I recommend you read the whole thread please?

Well, I can sum up his post with the assumption he did: "I don't agree with you"
On a side note, his list of things that can deal with the destroyer is the exact same as mine, incidentaly. Of course, it's unlikely I'll get more than one poisonned volley shot off with my goblins before it gets in melee, and then it'll murder them in melee ><. Hoping on venom surge from the arachnarok might be a long shot (because for all the talks of "booh the rest of the army is expensive", well, it's worth what it costs, doesn't it? Among the meanest warmachines around, and blunderbusses make a mess of things. So fireglaives and the special dwarves are overcosted... Big deal, the rest isn't bad. Maybe my fantasied unit of big bosses on gigantic spider would actually become a default in my army if I have to face that thing.

[Jind_Singh]

Why?

I read it - thats why I posted.

Thread states the KD is the best monster - period.

I just wrote what I'd have in my own army to deal with it - as others have.

I also said that the beast has no place in the game - it's as dumb as the Mountain Chimera - as they are too good for what they do. The only difference is that the Mountain Chimera needs a set of circumstances to be played off and is vunerable to being dispelled the next turn.

The KD is a poorly thought out monster - it's best in class as it has NO CLASS - you can pit it against any beastie out there and it'll run circles around them for the most part.

The only other beastie, but would be more expensive, is the Dread Saurian which is even worse than the KD - with the upgrades it beats the KD hands down.

So what was your point?

[themanbelow]

So what was your point?

Don't worry about it, we haven't got 20 years.

[Confessor_Atol]

That's pretty funny.

- it's best in class as it has NO CLASS -

[Snake1311]

I just makes the Dragonhelm and gem even more mandatory than they were before.

Just because CD may not be overperforming overall for one reason or another, doesn't mean the KD isn't broken. The fact that everyone takes it should be an indicator for starters - its like the hellpit on crack.

[Jind_Singh]

LOL! Ok - I won't worry about your 1st point either!

[Montegue]

tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

[Zeroth]

Zeroth: That's just not true and surprises me you can make a judgement when, from what I can understand, you've never even faced them. I think that's the problem here; you get a situation where whispers and poor players make things out to be an issue, when they're not.

You're right, I don't have much experience against them, did 2 or 3 practice games when my pal proxied them didn't use the K'daai Destroyer though and it was under the ETC comp, still was a very tight fight. Tough as nails them are.

[The bearded one]

tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

How about the third anecdote? A unit of 3++ chosen fighting it for 4 rounds, 2 of which with mindrazor, before killing it but losing half the unit.

Or the fourth, where a big unit of minotaurs, a minotaur lord and 30 bestigors charge it, and lose nearly all bestigors before killing it after 4-5 rounds of combat.


The 2nd anecdote seems mostly a case of bad luck: losing 3 wounds to skinks in 1 turn (requiring 36 shots on average), before charging into an unstompable unit of skinks-krox, after which a stegadon countercharges and promptly loses 4 out of 5 wounds, then rolling a 6 on the toughness test and a 5 on the D3.
The 5th anecdote a case of your opponent using frenzy to force you into the perfect counter, and even it's surprising you didn't wreck the ogres anyway, because the destroyer can kill a third of those maneaters in 1 round.

[Urgat]

tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

You forgot to mention he whiffed his attacks and the orc player got very lucky with his ward saves. In short, he might have won with average dice too.