Females in (Dark) Eldar society

[elmo23]

@ChaplainCharlie

wow.... where did you study biology and evolution, you got almost everything so wrong.

Yes, hands is what make us evolved to the next stage of evolution. We have hands to use tools! One of the best things in the world are tools. Lots of animals were born with "tools", but their tools are fixed on and unchangeable.... example... Crab. Crab have great useful crab claws... but can it grab needle and thread or build fire with it? You understand what I'm trying to say... so I won't go in to it.

[Drasanil]

Seeing females only as "potential mothers" as you do sounds rather sexist.

It's a number's game, 'sexism' has nothing to do with it, how it 'sounds' or 'feels' is even less relevant. 1 male + 10 females makes for more babies than 10 males + 1 female. A race as advanced as the eldar, who are suffering population problems, would know that.

Any feminist would be able to battle you down if you'd start such a discussion.

And that wouldn't prove a thing or change the fact they'd be wrong, so who cares?

[Lord Zarkov]

This is assuming of course that Eldar work like Terrestrial animals, and the 'multiple stages of conception' thing doesn't change things.

[eldargal]

There is nothing sexist about recognising the vital importance of females in keeping a population alive. That doesn't mean they would be viewed purely as walking wombs either. I recall reading somewhere that the ideal human growth ratio is something like 6 women assigned to each man, each being impregnated in turn. The ratio for Eldar would vary depending on the length of gestation and the multiple stages of conception issue. But as these would be as familiar to the Eldar as our own breeding system it is nothing a good Path system couldn't take into account.

Path of the Mother:
One male Eldar is assigned to the optimum number of females. Optimum number being how many are required to ensure that by the time the first has successfully given birth the last has been impregnated successfully
One female is selected and copulation is attempted under controlled, ritualised circumstances to control the emotions elicited.
When the first female is successfully impregnated the male moves on to a second female returning to the first only at the optimum times to ensure gestation continues through the required multiplke stages.
This continues until all the females are successfully impregnated/given birth.
After giving birth the female chooses either to continue breeding or leave the Path.

The goal being to minimise the time between pregnancies while maximising the number of pregnancies all while suppressing the emotions which could result and avoid any possibility of excess by ritualising each stage of the Path.

Obviously this is all just a very rough outline, I'm not a biologist. Or a xenobiologist.

I totally just thought of this and certainly have not been thinking about how Eldar could breed efficiently for a decade or more...

[comradeda]

Of course, they probably just have the technology to impregnate females without copulation. Depending on whom, they may not want to do that (for whatever ritualistic reason). The Dark Eldar probably don't have any problem with it.

I vaguely recall Tolkien Elves breed something like this. They were pretty ***** though. /ubermensch

[eldargal]

Quite, but even the Dark Eldar who use such technology look down on it. The whole Trueborn elite thing.

[comradeda]

Well, it's a status symbol more than anything. Like, "my other offspring is also a trueborn" sort of thing.

[Poseidal]

In Path of the Warrior it suggests that Eldar at least sometimes mate outside ritual (actually there's no evidence anywhere for ritual in this area as far as I know).

[ChaplainCharlie]

Also in the Path of the Seer it is quite evident (SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER!!!) that courting is indeed part of Eldar society as the protagonist is forced to choose between two rivals who both seem to be romantically interested in her.

I must say that the whole point was based mostly on not actually being aware of how many Eldar there were. If there indeed are (canon wise) billions and billions of them on hundreds or thousands of Craftworlds, then that is not a big issue then. Mostly just from recalling things like what happend to Iyaden and so on so forth would make one believe that Eldar in general did not like being extinct and hence would want to preserve themselves as a race. And that naturally requires recouperating from losses both civil and martial.

To address a few points in no particular order:
- The Path of the Nympho was just a humorous jab at the Path system. Obviously the common paths are artistic or martial (from sculpting, music or craftmanship to fencing and shooting and beyond), but it has been often stated (IIRC) that the Path system is a safe way for an Eldar to live a fufilling life and indulge in all the aspects of her psyche in a safe way. To me, that sounds like it really encompasses all aspects of life, so a sort-of Path of the Nympho ought to exist. Of course it would be structured and so on, not just wild and free, just like the other Paths, but it is a part of the Eldar psyche (I'd guess) to have a sexuality, so obviously there has to be a path dedicated to it.
- Once again, a creature's brain complexity is key, not size. Even more "limiting" sized or shaped creatures would make for great civilizations and tech if given time. Heck, I would imagine that centaur-esque beings could be potentially discussing how absurd it would be to have life in a bipedal form because it would be so hard to design cockpits to acommodate them in another universe. Just saying that our preceptions of what is easy is mostly hampered by what has been done. Our only limits are our minds and our imaginations...
- And close combat would surely have been effective against Necrons too. Why else do Eldar have martial arts experts? Or indeed swords at all? If they would have fought the War in Heaven entirely with guns, they would have evolved so far down that ranged line that modern Eldar would have no need for close combat weapons. They could just dominate at range, like the Tau.

I wholly understand why some might see it demeaning to discuss child birth and the need to protect women because of their child-carrying biology (modern society condemns such talk as backwards or demeaning). Nevertheless, if worse came to pass and you found your nation's remnants on a boat and dying out of age and attrition, would you consider women as easily expendable as men? Both are needed, for sure, but as has been stated, a man can impregnate many women whilst a woman can only carry the children of one man at a time. There's nothing sexist about admitting that these things are not equal, but it is sexist to say that either gender is somehow inherrently better than the other. Each is valuable, but in different ways. Let us not dwell too much on modern day social politics however. I don't think it really suits these forums...

As for just massive population ala the Dark Eldar cloning/artificial womb way. Well, I think they (both Eldar race halves) feel that it's cheating and that the Eldar produced in that way are not entirely complete beings. Could be that they lack some part of the Eldar soul? Nevertheless, being a highly advanced and sensitive race, the Eldar ought to know what's best for them as a whole.
But on the plus side, there aren't that many female warrior models in Guardian or aspect warrior squads, so at least on the battlefield the representation of genders is somewhat "logical".

[Drasanil]

There is nothing sexist about recognising the vital importance of females in keeping a population alive. That doesn't mean they would be viewed purely as walking wombs either.

Aye, I don't think the eldar would view females as walking wombs, rather I was objecting to the idea that it was sexist to assume the eldar wouldn't realise that there is ratio of males to females that is more beneficial to preserving their species and that on some levels it wouldn't be taken into account despite the specie's lack of gender roles. The only way I see it not really being a concern would be if the eldar had the technology to simply alter a person's gender to match their population needs, which is not entirely out of the realm of possibilities given what Haemmonculi can do.

[elmo23]

Aye, I don't think the eldar would view females as walking wombs, rather I was objecting to the idea that it was sexist to assume the eldar wouldn't realise that there is ratio of males to females that is more beneficial to preserving their species and that on some levels it wouldn't be taken into account despite the specie's lack of gender roles. The only way I see it not really being a concern would be if the eldar had the technology to simply alter a person's gender to match their population needs, which is not entirely out of the realm of possibilities given what Haemmonculi can do.

"Simply alter a person's gender"....LOL.... you think it is that simple? Adding wings or extra arms are one thing... but adding a wang or removing somebody's wang off is totally not a physical choice.... but also a psychological choice as well..... it wont' be as simple as that.

[Drasanil]

"Simply alter a person's gender"....LOL.... you think it is that simple? Adding wings or extra arms are one thing... but adding a wang or removing somebody's wang off is totally not a physical choice.... but also a psychological choice as well..... it wont' be as simple as that.

Considering we've already started our first forays into cloning and the growth of human body parts from stem cells, it's not that far of a stretch to think that an alien species who has a good few millions years on us could achieve a feat that is similar but more complex with their own much much more advanced technology, especially if a segment of said species are known as flesh-crafters par excellence who can regrow a dead person from a single digit. The notion isn't entirely as far-fetched as it seems on the face of it.

[LordLucan]

Haemonculi can alter the genetic code of eldar to make people reptillian. They created their cloning method by observing an insectoid race's breeding cycle, and recreated taht gestation cycle in the eldar. They can regenerate new bodies from a single cell. They can manipulate and transport souls.

Hell, they could probably build a rich Archon an alternate female body, and have his soul transferred into it if they so choosed.

A psychological choice gender change might be, but haemonculi can alter brain chemistry too (they do it all the time when they want to enhance the pain a subject might feel).

Haemonculi themselves regularly alter their own genetic codes, as path of the Renegade mentions with Bellathonis I believe.

[Poseidal]

Is Path of the Renegade out? I haven't really been following the releases lately. Is there anything else it says concerning this matter?

Considering what Dark Eldar do, I wonder how they view the Craftworlders in this light?

[Jonny Draigo]

I would say it´s almost sure that in DE society, you can choose to be a female if you want, given by their super hedonistic nature and state-of-art cloning and body modification technologies. Even we, primitve mon-keighs here in 21st century, know some basic about gender change. DE are seeking all plesures of the universe, what orgies would that be if you could not taste it from the other genders side anyways...

[ChaplainCharlie]

Is Path of the Renegade out? I haven't really been following the releases lately. Is there anything else it says concerning this matter?

Considering what Dark Eldar do, I wonder how they view the Craftworlders in this light?

Path of the Renegade is out. I believe you are waiting for Path of the Outcast, though? If you mean the one with the Corsairs and not just Dark Eldars...

Outcast is due to release August 2012. I'm waiting for it like the rising moon. XD


A person's sexuality, however, is much more than just gender. I can not say I know Eldar psychology at all and it could be that they swing both ways without problem, but assuming they have preferences (strong ones at that) then it would not really be enough to just change the body parts. We have people that have the mind of a woman in the body of a man, or at least the sexual desires of a women and of course vice versa. They could of course just change genders to relieve the issue, but I find it funny (without back-tracking to see if these are the same individuals) that at first it was suggested that "protecting" women was degrading and sexist, but now (possibly involuntary) sex-change operations are just dandy. Kinda odd if you ask me... Why deliberately put the real women in harm's way so you can then sex-change males into females to keep the population up? Doesn't make sense to me. But that might be the Eldar way. After all, the Eldar mind is alien and complex beyond the grasp of man...

[elmo23]

Considering we've already started our first forays into cloning and the growth of human body parts from stem cells, it's not that far of a stretch to think that an alien species who has a good few millions years on us could achieve a feat that is similar but more complex with their own much much more advanced technology, especially if a segment of said species are known as flesh-crafters par excellence who can regrow a dead person from a single digit. The notion isn't entirely as far-fetched as it seems on the face of it.

lol...I'm not talking about the tech level here. I'm talking about any species like Eldar which are similar to Human, they have their sexes (male/female) and switching sex is something most intelligence species would not willing to make the "change" unless they want a sex change like Ladyboy or Gay people.

You think any Male Eldar is willing to be a female just so his species have more population? Not just being a female.. but also to have sex with male... which will make him homosexual (in the mind) even if his body is now female.....

You get it... switching sex is crazy ideas...Maybe Dark Eldar will do that to their Eldar slaves for fun.... but nobody want to be change unless they want the sex change for SEX...

Sex Change for most must be something forced on... not a choice like a Ladyboy....LOL

[Lord Zarkov]

Eldar psychology is completely different to human psychology, changing sex might not be thought of in the same way - certainly for the ancient Eldar (and therefore also the Dark Eldar) changing sex would have been yet one more novel experience to try during their millennia long lifespans (both for the experience of new hormones etc, and for having sex in a different manner). The ancient Eldar were certainly arrogant and powerful enough that if a male Eldar wanted to experience giving birth for example there would be no way nature was going to stop him.

There's also the issue of messing with people's brain chemistry (something Haemonculi at least can do) - if you mess with someone's brain so that they think they're the opposite sex in the wrong body (a condition some humans claim to be born with* (and not just those born homosexuals, you get straight women that have sex changes to live as gay men)).

With regards to the Craftworlders, choosing a path is a voluntary thing, but if for example you had a male Eldar who wanted to join a hypothetical female only Path of Motherhood, it's probably not beyond the Eldar's capability to enable this.


* 'claim' deliberately chosen here as a neutral term.

[Denny]

A person's sexuality, however, is much more than just gender. I can not say I know Eldar psychology at all and it could be that they swing both ways without problem, but assuming they have preferences (strong ones at that) then it would not really be enough to just change the body parts. We have people that have the mind of a woman in the body of a man, or at least the sexual desires of a women and of course vice versa.

Minor point, but I think you might be confusing being gay with being transexual; a transexual who was born a man and becomes a woman might still fancy women for example.

In terms of Eldar views to gender I think Gav T has mentioned they are supposed to be quite fluid.

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.c...ections-pt-ii/

"For a long time I dabbled with the idea of having a prominent character who was a male member of the female Howling Banshees. I initially wanted to examine the somewhat fluid nature of Eldar gender and their attitude towards male and female roles and characteristics. In the end I abandoned it because it was too much to get across for a secondary character and would have been more confusing than enlightening; and it simply would have been too much to use such a character as the protagonist for the majority of the BL readership."

[AndrewGPaul]

For what it's worth, the consequences of changing sex are part of one of the plots of Iain M. Banks' Excession. The Culture always struck me as the sort of civilisation that could end up something like the pre-Fall Eldar. The difference being that they considered that and built a conscience into their civilisation.