Inquisitors inquisitive about Marine Chapters

[Corbeau]

Steel Cobras. It's interesting because I'm 99% convinced that it was just an excuse. A lot of Imperials worship the Emperor by weaving him into their pre-Imperial mythos as a sun god or thunder god - a totem for a feral world animistic society doesn't seem that far-fetched. And the Space Marines are exempted from having to worship the Emperor to begin with - a lot of chapters "worship" him in the same sense as people worship Mao or Lenin, as a pinnacle of humanity.

Exactly, that was why I mentioned them in my earlier post. It would help if I posted when I wasn't half asleep. This is exactly the sort of point I was getting at. We all know that the Inquisition is a collection of somewhat individually motivated... individuals, and what the general things are that will get you attention - even if these have shifted a little in the 17 years I've been playing lol. But the steel cobras are an interesting one... What do you think was the reason, as I think you're right, the mis-worship of the Emperor doesn't fit with the generally established fluff

[Stonerhino]

Well there was the time an overzealous Inquisitor actually tried to wipe out the Space Wolves due to a disagreement stemming from the fallout of Armageddon I, in which no one was willing to back down.
Spoilers from Emperor's Gift

The conflict was only resolved when the Inquisitor's will to continue was weakened after meeting Bjorn and the whole "OMG this guy fought at the Emperor's side while He was alive" thing made him realise the enormity of what he was doing (i.e. wiping out a First Founding Chapter); meaning that when Bjorn scolded Logan Grimnar into apologising for the conflict he was willing to accept it as an end to the conflict, even accepting Grimnar's condition of a GK-related-mindwipe exemption for the Space Wolf Chapter.

So yes the Space Wolves get off lightly because they're a First Founding - yes giving in to them is often rationalised as 'oh they're more useful as allies' etc (it wouldn't do for the Inquisition to declare openly that FF Chapters can get away with whatever they want) - but the chapter clearly gets away with things far beyond what would be tolerated in any later founded chapter, however skilled they might be.

I guess by "Only resolved when the Inquisitor's will to continue was weakened after meeting Bjorn". You mean actually mean "After being killed by Grimnar and his next in command being threatened by Bjorn".

Then remember these words, little maiden. Be sure that every soul to carry your order's sigil hears these words. If an Inquisition ship ever darkens the skies above Fenris again, we will pull it from the Sky and feast on its iron bones. Do you hear me?

Clearly the horrific battle that came after the meeting between Bjorn and Kysnaros. Didn't happen since Kysnaros desided that destroying a first counding chapter was so bad.

[Lord Zarkov]

I guess by "Only resolved when the Inquisitor's will to continue was weakened after meeting Bjorn". You mean actually mean "After being killed by Grimnar and his next in command being threatened by Bjorn".

Clearly the horrific battle that came after the meeting between Bjorn and Kysnaros. Didn't happen since Kysnaros desided that destroying a first counding chapter was so bad.

Spoilers for those that haven't read the book:

After the meeting with Bjorn there was a clear morale drop in the Inquisitorial force. Demands from Kysnaros rapidly went from "You must surrender, forfeit your homeworld and go on a pentinary crusade until destroyed" to "Pretty please accept a short crusade so we can go home while saving face. You can even keep your homeworld!"

Do you really think the Inquisition would have stood for those sort of threats from any lesser person than Bjorn? There were a huge number of Inquisitors on that fleet, any one of which had the authority to excommunicate the Wolves and summon up more troops, even a few chapters of other marines, to attempt destroy them, like they did the Steel Cobras, Flame Falcons, Rainbow Warriors, Sons of Malice, Astral Claws, Relictors and all the other Chapters that got on the wrong side of the Inquisition. But no one wants to be the Inquisitor who defied a warrior who fought at the Emperor's side, or destroyed a First Founding Chapter - hence the grudging acquiescence from the Conclave to let the Wolves have what they want, with only muttering of nebulous 'consequences' .

[aim]

Spoilers for those that haven't read the book:

After the meeting with Bjorn there was a clear morale drop in the Inquisitorial force. Demands from Kysnaros rapidly went from "You must surrender, forfeit your homeworld and go on a pentinary crusade until destroyed" to "Pretty please accept a short crusade so we can go home while saving face. You can even keep your homeworld!"

Do you really think the Inquisition would have stood for those sort of threats from any lesser person than Bjorn? There were a huge number of Inquisitors on that fleet, any one of which had the authority to excommunicate the Wolves and summon up more troops, even a few chapters of other marines, to attempt destroy them, like they did the Steel Cobras, Flame Falcons, Rainbow Warriors, Sons of Malice, Astral Claws, Relictors and all the other Chapters that got on the wrong side of the Inquisition. But no one wants to be the Inquisitor who defied a warrior who fought at the Emperor's side, or destroyed a First Founding Chapter - hence the grudging acquiescence from the Conclave to let the Wolves have what they want, with only muttering of nebulous 'consequences' .

As I said earlier, I honestly do not think that other marine chapters would turn on one of the first founding, even under orders from the =][=. Or, If they did, it would cause a second civil war. I'm sure that if the Ultras, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Sallies, hell, even the Dark Angels (with all the grief between them and the wolves) heard that the =][= were declaring the Wolves heretics and trying to destroy them, they would go to arms for them. At the very least, for starters, the parent chapters of those that were heeding the orders of the =][= would send a message with a 'What the hell do you think you are doing? The wolves have always been like that, are you saying your judgement is better than that of the Emperor?". If that failed, I can see there being a second civil war if the =][= refused to back down.

[Lord Zarkov]

As I said earlier, I honestly do not think that other marine chapters would turn on one of the first founding, even under orders from the =][=. Or, If they did, it would cause a second civil war. I'm sure that if the Ultras, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Sallies, hell, even the Dark Angels (with all the grief between them and the wolves) heard that the =][= were declaring the Wolves heretics and trying to destroy them, they would go to arms for them. At the very least, for starters, the parent chapters of those that were heeding the orders of the =][= would send a message with a 'What the hell do you think you are doing? The wolves have always been like that, are you saying your judgement is better than that of the Emperor?". If that failed, I can see there being a second civil war if the =][= refused to back down.

Well, in the book the Inquisition do bring an entire later founding Chapter along with the company of Grey Knights when they went to attack the Wolves, but what you're saying is kind of the point I'm making - one does not simply try and destroy a First Founding Chapter.

Hence the Wolves; and the Dark Angels (with the dodgy things they've done to hide the fallen); and the Blood Angels and (especially 2nd Founding, e.g. Flesh Tearers) successors (with their flaw); and to an extent the Second Founding Black Templars (who are massively oversized); all get away with things beyond what would be tolerated in anyone else. The Wolves are a particularly egregious example as they've openly defied the Inquisition, but the others have done things that would invite censure in any other chapter.

[TheDungen]

yeah excommunicating a first founding chapter would at the very least get their successor chapters rebelling. I'm pretty sure that the rest of the adeptus astartes would step in to protect the independence of the adeptus astartes as well.

The wolfs are in a bit of a bind since they don't have any surviving successors as far as we know. and they've also managed to get themselves pretty impopular with the other space marines (open grudge with DA for an example). still wiping out all descendants of a specific primarch would probably still rile them up a bit.

[Grit]

Even if the Wolves were excomunicated,it would take a pretty hefty force to destroy them IMO,they have the second best fortress in the Imperium.
Also the Wolves are one of the major chapters that defend the Cadian gate so would be a big loss.

[A Shadow]

Excommunicating the Wolves would probably result in most First Founding Chapters getting annoyed, not to mention that the entire region of space under their protection would likely rebel.

[KingDeath]

Why should they? The planetary rulers near Fenris owe their allegiance to the Golden Throne and not to Logan Grimnar.
Besides that, a single space marine chapter, even one from the first founding, has very limited means to defend itself compared to what
the Imperium of Man can bring. If the excomunication is justified and generaly accepted then even the other first founding chapters will have no choice
but to condemn their former brothers, unless they wish to openly swear fealty to the Despoiler ( and don't kid yourself, sooner or later every renegade bends his knee before the might of chaos ).

[aim]

Why should they? The planetary rulers near Fenris owe their allegiance to the Golden Throne and not to Logan Grimnar.
Besides that, a single space marine chapter, even one from the first founding, has very limited means to defend itself compared to what
the Imperium of Man can bring. If the excomunication is justified and generaly accepted then even the other first founding chapters will have no choice
but to condemn their former brothers, unless they wish to openly swear fealty to the Despoiler ( and don't kid yourself, sooner or later every renegade bends his knee before the might of chaos ).

See, this opinion, although I see where its coming from, I don't agree with.

I have no doubt, even the UM and DA, despite being goody two shoes and hating the wolves respectively, would stand up and say 'hang about a minute buddy'. You have to remember that these chapters have a 10000 year history of fighting together, for the imperium, right back to standing with the emperor against their brothers superpowered by dark gods. They are literally a different breed, brothers, both genetically and metaphoricaly. They know the emperor is not a god but a supreme pinacle of mankind. You can bet your left do-dad that if the remaining first founding chapters took a stand against the =][=, a heck of a lot of the remaining chapters would, and people know that these guys saved the imperium from the traitor legions, so add, Macragge, a helluva lot of IG and Navy regiments joining them too. You would literally have a second civil war, all because the =][= got too bold and tried to flew its muscle in the wrong place.

[BooTMGSG]

While the DA have a sort of feud with the spacewolves.
They would definitely side with the wolves over the inquisition.
1.) Best not let this sort of thing happen, you never know who'd be next (well the DA would and thats the point.)
2.) Yes they have a feud, and its a good feud, goes back ages, back to the Lion and Russ, they are not going to let the Inquisition ruin a perfectly good tradition. Frankly they are not worthy of taking down the Wolves. If anyone will take them down its the DA, (ok perhaps the emperor himself).

[TheDungen]

Bear in midn that whiel the planetary govenors may owe their alliegience to the golden throne a fair few of them have been saved by the coming of a space marine chapter in the past, if this chapter gets attacked by the inquisition they might chose to support the chapter. Espcially the ones aroudn fenris cause while the SW may not get along with their fellow space marines they have stood up for the normal humans of the imperium more than any chapter.

[Lord Zarkov]

Seems unlikely, the most a planet will hear is "This chapter have betrayed the Imperium and must be destroyed so troops must be raised" if they even hear anything at all. And planetary governors are much easier to cowl than Space Marines, and easier to replace.

[Lupe]

Does anyone have any idea just how many blood debts, pacts and honor treaties a first founding chapter can establish within the space of ten thousand years? I'll tell you, quite a great many, and certainly not restricted to the area of space in the immediate vicinity of the Fang. And most of these would be sacred, bound in writing, so ancient they actually become an integral part of both parties' culture or any combination of the aforementioned.

The Inquision, however, is not known for keeping close ties with its one-time partners, and tends to requisition aid by virtue of their mandate, with only a few specialized organizations to its name. And if they do have outstanding debts to collect by pressuring forces to their cause, these will most likely be limited to the connections of the specific Inquisitors that start the mess in the first place, not to the Inquisition as a whole. Whereas the Space Wolves' leverage is probably legally and morally binding, build on genuine trust / respect / gratitude and bound to the Chapter itself, not to any one Chapter Master.

As for the other Chapters siding with the Inquisition, I very much doubt so.

Ultramarines - Very, very different from the Wolves, like to play by the rules and are very loyal to the Imperium. Would still likely side with the Wolves, because their humanitarian methods conflict with the Inquisition's ruthlesness
Blood Angels - Dante and Grimnar probably count as old comrades by now, and their ideals are more often similar than not. Dante is also the de facto voice for most of the Blood Angel Successors
Dark Angels - Not very fond of the Inquisition, and very unlikely to want to work with them for any great length of time (and a war with the Wolves would certainly qualify). Plus, they have their own past with the Space Wolves, and whom they respect just enough to keep playing their honour games every time they meet. Azrael is also the informal leader of all Dark Angel successors
Imperial Fists - Probably siding with the Wovles. They value determination and sticking to the right cause, and find the Inquisition's shady methods dishonorable. Same logic applies to at least some of their successors
Black Templars - Not sure of their stance on the Inquisition, but they're competing for the mandate of enforcing The Emperor's Will. They're also supremely proud of their superhuman heritage, and, I'd say, far more likely to side with brother Astartes over humans.
White Scars - Similar to the Wolves in that they value freedom and the right to choose your own path. Other philosophies might not be too dissimilar, either
Raven Guard - Sworn to oppose oppression and injustice. Probably siding with the Wolves, since the Inquisition is big on both oppression and injustice
Iron Hands - Uncertain. Their loyalties are to Terra and Mars. Might possibly side with the Inquisition

[Lord Zarkov]

The Inquisition keeps people in line with fear - fear of the price of disobedience and the punishments they can bring to bear. The average Marine Chapter will do what they say, even if they disagree, because, at the end of the day the Inquisition can always confiscate their holdings or summon multiple other chapters, the Grey Knights, or a suitably larger other army, in to deal with them, as they have done with others before. The prestigious 1st and 2nd Founding Chapters make up only about 5% of the total after all, the rest are far less entrenched.

The Inquisition keeps itself in line with politics - all Inquisitors have unlimited authority, and so all have nominally equal resources to draw on. If one does something over the top then others will band together to stop or punish them. In addition different Inquisitors often give different cross-purpose orders to different bodies in order to achieve different goals or simply to frustrate each other. Thinking of the Inquisition as one monolithic block is a mistake, although one that is well propagated in universe for obvious reasons. EYHBTIAL indeed.

The most prestigious chapter - primarily those of the First Founding - by dint of their history are not only more entrenched, but more savvy of Imperial politics. If a given Inquisitorial Conclave were to try and destroy a FF Chapter they would have to do it fairly quickly (or at least push it past the point of no return), using a combination of minor Chapters and their own resources (e.g. Grey Knights), as indeed was the case in the novel, as both other FF Chapters, and many other Inquisitors are likely to object.

Indeed the more goody-goody FF Chapters (Ultras, Fists, BA, Sallies, Scars) are likely to have their own contacts and even pacts within the Inquisition that they can make use of - e.g. getting an Inquisitor that they are friendly with to counteract the orders of the one doing the purging, or even declare them Heretics and 'order' the other FF Chapters to defend the one being attacked in the first place. Even if the initial Inquisitor is successful in purging his target before others try and stop him, he's still likely to end up on the wrong end of a Carta Extremis, as those Inquisitors allied with the other Chapters try and stop it from happening again.

[Chaos Undecided]

It varies alot depending on the individual inquisitor as well after all the Celestial Lions were virtually destroyed by "accident" after criticising the actions of an inquisitor on Armageddon probably one of the more extreme examples in the background.

[Cthell]

It varies alot depending on the individual inquisitor as well after all the Celestial Lions were virtually destroyed by "accident" after criticising the actions of an inquisitor on Armageddon probably one of the more extreme examples in the background.

Indeed, even the most well-established chapter is vulnerable to "accidents" if it relies on a single chapter-monastry for its base of operations (Just look at the Crimson Fists). Fleet based chapters are a lot less vulnerable to this, although they are subject to more constant attrition from warp transit accidents etc. That's probably part of the reason the Black Templars have managed to grow so large - by spreading out across the galaxy, they make precise counting virtually impossible, and if someone tries to eliminate a section of the fleet, there's a very good chance they'd have to deal with the entire rest of the chapter - a prospect that would probably trouble even the first founding chapters

[aim]

The Inquisition keeps people in line with fear - fear of the price of disobedience and the punishments they can bring to bear. The average Marine Chapter will do what they say, even if they disagree, because, at the end of the day the Inquisition can always confiscate their holdings or summon multiple other chapters, the Grey Knights, or a suitably larger other army, in to deal with them, as they have done with others before. The prestigious 1st and 2nd Founding Chapters make up only about 5% of the total after all, the rest are far less entrenched.

The Inquisition keeps itself in line with politics - all Inquisitors have unlimited authority, and so all have nominally equal resources to draw on. If one does something over the top then others will band together to stop or punish them. In addition different Inquisitors often give different cross-purpose orders to different bodies in order to achieve different goals or simply to frustrate each other. Thinking of the Inquisition as one monolithic block is a mistake, although one that is well propagated in universe for obvious reasons. EYHBTIAL indeed.

The most prestigious chapter - primarily those of the First Founding - by dint of their history are not only more entrenched, but more savvy of Imperial politics. If a given Inquisitorial Conclave were to try and destroy a FF Chapter they would have to do it fairly quickly (or at least push it past the point of no return), using a combination of minor Chapters and their own resources (e.g. Grey Knights), as indeed was the case in the novel, as both other FF Chapters, and many other Inquisitors are likely to object.

Indeed the more goody-goody FF Chapters (Ultras, Fists, BA, Sallies, Scars) are likely to have their own contacts and even pacts within the Inquisition that they can make use of - e.g. getting an Inquisitor that they are friendly with to counteract the orders of the one doing the purging, or even declare them Heretics and 'order' the other FF Chapters to defend the one being attacked in the first place. Even if the initial Inquisitor is successful in purging his target before others try and stop him, he's still likely to end up on the wrong end of a Carta Extremis, as those Inquisitors allied with the other Chapters try and stop it from happening again.

Oh I understand how the inquisition works and that they have the authority and therefore could order the extermination of an FF chapter. I'm just saying that they wouldn't for fear of starting a war. Or alternatively they would try (and get farther than in the novel with the wolves), and the result would be a second civil war that would break the imperium.

[Lupe]

Oh I understand how the inquisition works and that they have the authority and therefore could order the extermination of an FF chapter. I'm just saying that they wouldn't for fear of starting a war. Or alternatively they would try (and get farther than in the novel with the wolves), and the result would be a second civil war that would break the imperium.

Well, to be fair, the screw-up with the Wolves happened after the Badab War, and civil war still didn't stop the =][= from trying.

[Lord Zarkov]

Oh I understand how the inquisition works and that they have the authority and therefore could order the extermination of an FF chapter. I'm just saying that they wouldn't for fear of starting a war. Or alternatively they would try (and get farther than in the novel with the wolves), and the result would be a second civil war that would break the imperium.

Exactly, this then leads back to the original point that FF chapters have de facto more independence and latitude than other chapters, as that very situation can arise. Although as Lupe point out it doesn't always stop some Inquisitors from trying before being forced to back down.