It didn't stop those particular =][= members.... at that point.Originally Posted by Lupe
I think at the point where Macragge declared indepandance, then the remaining first founding chapters dropped out of the warp around fenris with half of their successor chapters and the Imperial Navy in tow it would have..... Which actually sounds like a far more interesting story haha.
Individual loyalties and blood debts matter little when it comes to facing the Imperium. The various chaptermasters would have to ask themselfs if they wish to side with renegades
or if they wish to remain loyal to the God Emperor of Mankind, who is represented by the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition. To side with an excommunicated chapter, no matter the reason, means to stand against the God Emperor and his Imperium. This should be pretty clear to every chaptermaster, first founding or not, especialy after the Badab War.
The Badab War is in fact a nice example for such an occurance. The Astral Claws were no less respected than some of the first founding chapters and yet they found only limited support. Those chapters unlucky enough to put their individual loyalties over their loyalty to the Imperium suffered greatly and served as a nice example for what happens with those who dare to stand against the Imperium of Man.
I therefore doubt that the majority of chapters would actively act against a legaly binding excommunication which is accepted and supported by the wider Imperium. I also doubt that the word of a first founding chaptermaster could influence sufficient chapters to lead to some kind of ( short, even together the chapters no longer have the kind of power that they had during the Horus Heresy ) civil war, otherwise Guillaume's work would be entirely for naught.
Imperial Navy certainly wouldn't get involved on the Astartes side - unless of course they had other Inquisitors backing them - that was after all the whole point of Guiliman's reorganisation, to the Ultras and their close successors it would be heresy of the highest kind.
Ultras wouldn't declare independence either as again that would be a betrayal of their Primarch and Emperor - and none of the other Chapter Masters would be keen to start another Heresy.
If the chapters wanted to do something they'd have to get the backing of alternate Inquisitorial authority - probably quite likely if a FF chapter was being threatened as other Inquisitors would use it as an excuse to further their own agendas. But as KingDeath points out, if the excommunication is supported by the wider Imperium they can do diddly squat.
The key point of course being the if.
I'm still not buying that that would happen at all. Plus if half of the Astartes said 'thats not on' with the main instigators being 'the guys that stoped us all from being raped and killed by horus', then yes, the navy, pdf and ig would most definitely get involved.
Do you really believe that Kysnarnos didn't realise the gravity of what he was doing??? And still continued down his choosen path. It's not like he didn't know the Space Wolves were a first founding chapter untill his meeting.
In some ways I don't think we read the same book.
As I underlined in my post. Yes being a First foundins chapter does carry some weight. But don't fool yourself into thinking that they have free reign to do what ever they want. The Emperor's gift flat out disproves this idea. At no point are we lead to believe that anyone doesn't know who the Space Wolves are. Meaning that every action against the Wolves that was taken; was done full well knowing what was being done and what it ment. First founding or no.
Well yes, butIn some ways I don't think we read the same book.
Well obviously they can't get away with anything, but it's clear that they're given a lot more leniency than would be given to someone less prestigious I'm doubtful thatAs I underlined in my post. Yes being a First foundins chapter does carry some weight. But don't fool yourself into thinking that they have free reign to do what ever they want. The Emperor's gift flat out disproves this idea. At no point are we lead to believe that anyone doesn't know who the Space Wolves are. Meaning that every action against the Wolves that was taken; was done full well knowing what was being done and what it ment. First founding or no.let alone get away with the terms given at the end of the book.
You wouldn't get half the Astartes rebelling, you probably wouldn't even get as much as 10% - remember 1st and 2nd Foundings only may up just over 50 chapter (out of 1,000), and the others aren't as closely bound. For example the Badab war, involving a fairly prestigious chapter being attacked by the Imperium, only had 16 chapters involved (4 of which were on the defending side). and 10% assuming that pretty much all the first two foundings and a good proportion of their close allies decide to outright secede, which is again unlikely (since it involved breaking all their own oaths and beliefs).
With regards to the Imperial Navy and Guard (PDF are planet bound so not going to be a factor), you are assuming that they'll get (and trust) the anti-Imperial side of the story. More likely they'll get the story from their own commanders about how these few chapter have been insidiously corrupted, waiting for the opportunity to strike; how they've turned their back on the Emperor; how they're twisted sinners who want the ruin of the Imperium like a new Horus; how you should be strong to resist corruption and not listen to their honeyed lies; etc. "Oh yeah, the Inquisition betrayed us so we're rebelling against the Imperium so come join us!" is hardly going to cut it as a call to rebellion, especially given the reputation of the Inquisition (both what happens to those who cross it, and of Inquisitors as "Bright saviours in an eclipse of evil; purest and most devoted warriors of the Emperor.")
Spoilers abound for those that have not read The Emperor's Gift.
"Someone less prestigious" is the whole point. Sure First Founding chapters get a little more leniency then a newer chapter. But that has more to do with 10,000 years of service as much as it does being "First Founding".
Think of a job you have had with a company. The more of an asset you are with that company the more leniency you get. Everyone has seen, heard of or been that person that seems like they can get away with murder. For the IoM that person is the Space Wolves. In The Emperor's Gift we see a chapter that pushed the Inquisition past the breaking point. Pushed to the point that they had no choice but to attempt the destruction of a First Founding Chapter.
By the time it got to the meeting with Bjorn. There was no turning back. Bjorn even sees this when he tells themBjorn, knew that this could not end in any other way. As a bled, spread thin chapter the Wolves had to show the lengths that they would go to maintain their honor. While demonstraighting the horric cost it would take to end them. Even as the battle ends, it ends on Bjorn's terms.
The switch to subtler forms of attack was because they knew that they did not win. And the likelyhood of a renewed assult would end simulary. Shown by Bjorns comments to the second in command Inquisitor. Combined with Grimnar's earler comments that the Wolves would fight to the last man.The imagery Mr Clown gives us of the aftermath of the battle is enough to show us that the Space Wolves, Greyknights, Inquisition, Red hunters and decision makers on Terra would never forget. Which meshes well with the quote in Grimnar's fluff in codex Space Wolves.
According to the Renegade Sons IA the Steel Cobras were excommunicated by order of a rather bombastic Cardinal, no mention of Inquisitorial involvement (possibly why no Space Marine chapters have thus far gotten involved - the Cardinals edict may only effect the Ecclesiarchy)
cannon = big gun
canon = officially recognized texts
Its worth noting that in the game the Blood Ravens can field a Grey Knight squad whilst the Imperial Guard can't, so its possible the Ordo Malleus wanted the world purged all along but decided to let the Blood Ravens do the dirty work figuring they'd get less grief from the Guard that way (ask for a Big Mac with cheese and you'll get it, DEMAND a Big Mac with cheese and you'll likely get it with an extra helping of spittle - Inquisitors still have the same problem, even if they do have the authority to summarily execute the spittee)
That's one thing; would the other Chapters side with the Inquisition or Wolves. Which do they believe serves the Imperium better?
"Our creed is this, we are ready, at any moment, to sacrifice all for victory." - Krieg Death Korps
A moment of laxity spread a lifetime of heresy, never forgive, never forget.
Cavalry wins skirmishes. Artillery wins battles. Infantry wins wars.
"Priamus, you are the last Emperor's Champion of the Helsreach Crusade. Now recover your blade.
There is a key part your missing, it wouldn't just be the other chapters, it would be the other Inquisitors as well. They aren't some unified body, in the emperor's gift its a not a situation where
i would like to state that it was one inquisitor that was primarily responsible for the fight with the wolves... hell several grey knights along with several other inquisitors in fact planned on killing him.
So it would be a good idea to say the level of wrath the inquisition plans to use against any chapter depends on the pull of the inquisitor as well as the position of the chapter.
The inquisition is such a grey faction you could have a lord from the puritan faction come to the aid of a chapter that he has worked with after said chapter slighted a radical ect. in the end the decision comes down to the willingness of the inquisitor to risk his standing and his position.
Some interesting discussion here lol, which was the point of the thread, I wasn't expecting a black and white response. It's always quite helpful for narrative reasons to have such a grey and fractious Inquisition. I suppose what I was angling for was what peoples' thoughts were on what the least dubious thing an average, non-First Founding Chapter would have to do, or how much would they need to deviate from the norm to receive a degree of Inquisition attention beyond the odd extremist nutjob (whether Puritan, Radical or whatever).
In my Arthurian/Celtic themed Chapter, the Chaplian-Apothecaries are referred to as Druids (in a poor Gothic translation) and Dwyrydd in their own language. It was suggested because they're called Druids the Inquisition would be "all over them" - the role really differs in no way from those of vanilla Chaplains or Apothecaries. Religious practices aren't particularly unusual, and the Ecclesiarchy gets no say anyway of course - and this element is largely irrelevant. I can't see any reason the Inquisition would care too much about what the particular role would be called...
Last edited by Corbeau; 27-07-2012 at 11:09.
Proud fluffbunny - Playing 40k for 17 years (not in one sitting)
You folks seem to think that the space marines give a damn about the high lords of terra, their loyalty is to the emperor of man. And they would not be rebelling against him they would be rebelling against those who falsely spoke in his name. And i believe they have before during the age of apostasy
The imperium isnt united the way you see it if the inquisition and the adeptus astartes began duking it out then half its planets would just see it as a chance to become self governing. To others it would be unclear which side was blessed by the emperor don't forget that space marines are seen as angels. the blood of the god emperor flows in their viens, why do you think that space marines are sent after other space marines that go rogue?
as said space wolves are more vulnerable since they have no successors but the truth is that since each legion have 20+ second founding chapters that also have successors, then the chapter master of a first founding chapter if he can convince all of his successors to fight for him can call upon a even larger army than the legions commanded by the primarchs. Openly and with prior warning bringing war to a fist founding chapter would be an insanely stupid idea. If you wanted to do that you would propaly call the chapter masters of the other first founding chapters to terra and discuss the issue with them. Consider what happened when a non fist founding chapter got backed into a corner by others (the astral claws). I think the imperium learned something from that.
I think the Badab War shows what happens if a non first founding chapter tries to throw it's weight around and things begin to spiral.
One of Huron's biggest downfall was that the Inquisition found out he had been building the Astral Claws to troop levels of around 3,000. This is what gets them excommunicated.
Now what happens if the same thing happens to the Wolves or Black Templars.
Assuming you ignore the impenetrable plot armour.
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
I don't think that it is a big stretch to believe that the =][= knows full well that the Black Templars are way over the 1,000 marine mark. And have opperated that way for 10,000 years now. So they are most likely viewed as an asset. So the =][= leaves them alone untill they are needed.
The Space Wolves, are also most likely known to also be well beyond the 1,000 marine mark. But rather then being considered an asset. The =][= knows that the SWs will defend themselves and cannot be bullied into "Toeing the line". So there are probably fail saves put in place to prevent another post Armaggedon incident (just a guess). At least in an "Open war" capacity, anyways.
They are the two opposite extremes that have done the same thing. One is so valued as not to be punished and the other is so defient that they are all but unpunishable.
The Astral Claws, might have gotten away with it too. If it was not for it escalating out of control. They simply involved to many outside forces.
I know for sure it's not the case. (A timeline mistake that was edited out of the book). But the Astral Claws could have not been allowed to "Do their thing" because of the events in The Emperor's Gift. The =][= not wanting another oversized SW style defient chapter. The pre-edit book read that the =][= didn't want another "Badab War". Not the other way around.
You seem to think that the only people who lost something during the badab war was the astral claws? The imperium lost several space marine chapter and massive recources on something that should've been a routine matter.
I think the inquisition will be more careful about excommunicating space marine chapters, without talking to the other space marine chapters first, after that regardless if they're first founding or not.
Why should they? If the Astral Claws, which were one of the most respected chapters in the Imperium, were rightfully crushed for their crimes then what chances would other chapters have? Sure, the loyal chapters took losses too but such things have to be expected in war.
The Badab war was a nice demonstration to every chaptermaster that interpreting the freedom of their chapters too liberaly will have severe consequences.
And it's not like the Astral Claws were even the most recently crushed chapter.
Flame Falcons, Sons of Malice and Relictors were all crushed more recently in the timeline (as were the Celestial Lions, but in that case more subtly and for a more stupid reason) - heck the Relictors even had Inquisitorial backing for their dubious activities and they were still destroyed.
Edited to fix grievous error.
Last edited by Lord Zarkov; 28-07-2012 at 23:16.
Because it costs the imperium time and resources they cant afford to waste? The astral claws proved to the imprium how dangerous a space marine chapter can be when backed in to a corned, and that other space marines may join in rebellion should they not thread lightly around the chapters. Do you think they consider the badab war a success? They didn't even manage to accomplish what they set out to do and still they wasted massive resources on the conflict.
I'm no familiar with the cases but in the case of the relictors they were sucker punched, and once again it didn't work that well since many of them got away. And the relictors had inquisitorial backing the first time they screwed up the second time they didnt and that's the time they got wiped out.
While it costs them time and resources, there's always going to be a point when the Inquisition/High Lords decides that the damage to the Imperium from the chapter remaining outweighs that from destroying it, and the occasional pruning of a chapter to show they mean business keeps the others in line. The Badab war also proved that when the greater Imperium decides to purge a chapter, even a well renowned and respected one, the majority of chapters will support their decision.
Their Fortress Monastery was attacked and destroyed by Grey Knights which is standard practice for purging chapters, yes a few ships got away, but you're never going to be able to catch them all - the important point is they were purged from the Imperium and a point made to other Chapters.I'm no familiar with the cases but in the case of the relictors they were sucker punched, and once again it didn't work that well since many of them got away. And the relictors had inquisitorial backing the first time they screwed up the second time they didnt and that's the time they got wiped out.
As for the others:
Flame Falcons started bursting into magical flame - the Chapter Master declared it a blessing from the Emperor, the Inquisition had them purged as dangerous mutants.
The Sons of Malice was purged as an Inquisitor disagreed with their flesh eating victory rites, and so arrived with some Celestines to stop them. The Sons of Malice attacked the strikeforce and sacrificed the Inquisitor on the Chapter Altar. They were swiftly declared Heretics
The Celestial Lions were a similar case to the Wolves (they disagreed with the purging of a planet), but were slightly more tactful - only sending letters and making complaints. They were deployed on Armageddon, and deliberately fed inaccurate intelligence which led them into ambushes where they were outgunned, before the Orks launched a 'very well coordinated' attack on their base in which highly accurate sniper fire picked off their Apothecaries.
They ended up with 96 marines left with no apothecaries or remaining gene seed, and vowed to die on Armageddon.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote