Ordered, Intelligent, Non-Anarchic forces of Evil?

[Desalbert]

Just a quick question about the background that I thought to get warseer's opinion on. (It's also a question that will help me choose my army project).

I like playing as evil. That's just how it is for me. But I don't like evil that's just about destruction for its own sake (which GW seems to write about in line after line of codex materials).

My question then is this: Are there any factions that we can fairly call evil [yes, I know 40k is full of grey but work with me here, Space Marines are still written as heroes, afterall] that are conscerned not with destroying killing and burning the world, but establishing empires, hierarchies of nobility and that exist in societies or own cities?

I look to Chaos Space Marines and all I seem to find is roving warbands that ply the stars as glory hounds and pirates

I see Dark Eldar and think, hey, maybe they have concern for socities and empires and so on-- but then, they seem to be outside of real-space, brazenly raiding from a single city, and entirely too possessed with killing to actually worry about societal breakdown and anarchy.

And what of Daemons? At some point at think: Hey, now here is a highly stratified realm of existence! The Gods with their "Great Game", their system of 4 Empires (1 per god) and their creation of power, anexxation of new "realms" in the warp and new daemon worlds etc etc. But then I stop and think: Hey, Desalbert, you're a fool, because CHAOS DAEMONS are founded on the VERY PRINCIPLE OF CHAOS (therefore they cannot possibly care about order--not for long)

What's more, the lesser daemons seem to care only about killing all life.

So... I know I'm simplifying, but my piece being said, is there any evil force (playable faction) in this great universe which doesn't promote anarchy and instead seeks imperialistic-style, intelligently planned and ordered villainy?

Or is evil synonymous with anarchic chaos and societal breakdown in this universe?

[grayghost]

I think you're correct with your final line, that rather then a battle between "good" and "evil", 40k is more of a conflict between order and anarchy. The Imperium is rife with concepts we've labeled as evil (eugenics, nuclear warfare, ethnic cleansing, etc), but they are the "heroes" (to some) because the alternative is unadulterated chaos, literally.

I always think of NPH in Starship Troopers. "We're in this for the species, boys and girls."

[Lord Inquisitor]

I think what you're looking for is an imperial force. The Inquisition in particular are pretty much the epitome of the "lawful evil" concept you want.

[Stonerhino]

Necrons. Words

[Rogue Star]

Have you considered the Necrons? I'm not sure if you perceive them as 'evil' but they're definitely concerned with empire building.

[Desalbert]

Have you considered the Necrons? I'm not sure if you perceive them as 'evil' but they're definitely concerned with empire building.

Necrons. Words

Has Necron fluff changed? I thought they were all about reaping the souls of those fools that took over. Used to think of them as semi-single-minded in that regard.

Funny, they don't really appeal to me for other reasons, as a force to play, but it's good to know such a force might exist.

As well, Lord Inquisitor, I'm curious where Eldar fit if Imperium of man is Lawful Evil. (Yup, Lawful evil is exactly what I'm after-- no lawful evil xenos though?)

[elmo23]

I think what you're looking for is an imperial force. The Inquisition in particular are pretty much the epitome of the "lawful evil" concept you want.

This!

Yep, Imperial are like the Space Nazi or Space Mujahideen .. .. . CONVERT, JOIN, FEAR US OR DIE!

[agurus1]

Read some Guant's Ghost's novels particularly "Traitor General" which gives you a look 'behind enemy lines' as it were. The Arch-Enemy is very organized, which is why it is such a huge threat to the Imperium. They want to build an empire, its just that they have access to more terrible and arcane knowledge with which to build it with, and the forces to which they are aligned require things from their servants that an Imperial army would never consider. "Traitor General" is good because it shows the reader what happens to a planet once the Arch-Enemy conquers it, how they consolidate their rule, enforce their authority on the native population, and harvest the world resources.

[Rogue Star]

Has Necron fluff changed? I thought they were all about reaping the souls of those fools that took over. Used to think of them as semi-single-minded in that regard.

It has. It's the same right up until they defeat the Old Ones, but then they turned on their Star God Masters, before entering hibernation-stasis. Now they've emerged to reclaim the galaxy and rebuild their empire, albeit as mechanical skeletal creatures. They will destroy or enslave the inhabitants of the worlds they claim on a whim.

[fortresscadia]

This!

Yep, Imperial are like the Space Nazi or Space Mujahideen .. .. . CONVERT, JOIN, FEAR US OR DIE!

Except unlike the real world example, in the grim darkness of the far future, there really are dark gods that will eat your soul, hence why real world comparisons arent very appropriate IMHO.

[Desalbert]

Read some Guant's Ghost's novels particularly "Traitor General" which gives you a look 'behind enemy lines' as it were. The Arch-Enemy is very organized, which is why it is such a huge threat to the Imperium. They want to build an empire, its just that they have access to more terrible and arcane knowledge with which to build it with, and the forces to which they are aligned require things from their servants that an Imperial army would never consider. "Traitor General" is good because it shows the reader what happens to a planet once the Arch-Enemy conquers it, how they consolidate their rule, enforce their authority on the native population, and harvest the world resources.

Interesting! I will have to take this up to see if it can inspire me toward building a Chaos Space Marine force! Good to know these kinds of issues are considered.

Aye, I DO wish there was an inquisition codex proper-- that'd be super awesome. As it is, Grey Knights are the only real option as a force to field and they're just too popular and too powerful for me (another issue entirely)--[Also would do Sisters but the lack of plastics and a 'dex... well]

[Stonerhino]

Has Necron fluff changed? I thought they were all about reaping the souls of those fools that took over. Used to think of them as semi-single-minded in that regard.

Funny, they don't really appeal to me for other reasons, as a force to play, but it's good to know such a force might exist.

As well, Lord Inquisitor, I'm curious where Eldar fit if Imperium of man is Lawful Evil. (Yup, Lawful evil is exactly what I'm after-- no lawful evil xenos though?)

The IoM sees them as being a monolithic race with undertermined goals. The truth is vastly different, even before their newest codex. They are schemers, back stabbers, power grabbers who once controlled the galaxy. And if they ever fully awaken they will again.

You also have Deathnight (DnD) style honor twisting.

I am not capricious, nor am I given to cruel acts for their own sakes. It is simply a fact that you and your kind have trespassed, and thus invited extermination. curse you for putting me to this inconvenience.

Before harvasting the planet's population

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years, yet have little of account to for your efforts. Such failure must be as depressing to bear as it is to behold.

Before cutting off Helbrecht's hand and letting him go.

Wit is not required in my vassals; they need only the ability to fight and die in the furtherance of my boundless glory. Only the most merciful and beneficent of rulers would spare their subjects from the burden of independance, do you agree?

[TheDungen]

Look now further than tzeentch, the god of hope ambition and evolution. Really chaos can be split into two sides alogn the rivalry lines, when it comes to khorne and slaanesh khorne is the destructive one and slaanesh is the creative one. When it comes to nurgle and tzeentch nurgle is the destructive one and tzeentch is the creative one. Undivided can also be seen as quite ordered. We have several examples of this not the least the word bearers, but also many renegade space marine chapters that turn to chaos establish empires of their own before the imperials drive them out. i can also see cults and the demons manipulating those cults as having long term goals of taking over the imperium rather than destroying it.

[Desalbert]

Look now further than tzeentch, the god of hope ambition and evolution. Really chaos can be split into two sides alogn the rivalry lines, when it comes to khorne and slaanesh khorne is the destructive one and slaanesh is the creative one. When it comes to nurgle and tzeentch nurgle is the destructive one and tzeentch is the creative one. Undivided can also be seen as quite ordered. We have several examples of this not the least the word bearers, but also many renegade space marine chapters that turn to chaos establish empires of their own before the imperials drive them out. i can also see cults and the demons manipulating those cults as having long term goals of taking over the imperium rather than destroying it.

I tend to agree -- or at least I'd LIKE to be able to-- I'd like to be able to argue that Chaos as a force isn't about utter devastation but simply anexing of realspace into their realm-- after all, why would daemons (esp. daemon gods) absolutely genocide all species' in realspace when they EXIST because of those (esp. Mankind's) species' nightmares, and thoughts etc. In truth , don't Chaos Gods and daemons NEED realspace creatures to exist so that they may even come realspace-- and perhaps or perhaps in the absolute long-term, to exist entirely?

I sometimes have a hard time imaging the Chaos Gods as simply wanton destroyers seeking to end all life in real-space (like GW tends to write them). But, maybe I'm too optimistic here.

[Askil the Undecided]

I tend to agree -- or at least I'd LIKE to be able to-- I'd like to be able to argue that Chaos as a force isn't about utter devastation but simply anexing of realspace into their realm-- after all, why would daemons (esp. daemon gods) absolutely genocide all species' in realspace when they EXIST because of those (esp. Mankind's) species' nightmares, and thoughts etc. In truth , don't Chaos Gods and daemons NEED realspace creatures to exist so that they may even come realspace-- and perhaps or perhaps in the absolute long-term, to exist entirely?

I sometimes have a hard time imaging the Chaos Gods as simply wanton destroyers seeking to end all life in real-space (like GW tends to write them). But, maybe I'm too optimistic here.

Chaos isn't rational, it doesn't have a self preservation instinct and it can't die Chaos is just the sentient turbulence of the Warp. If Chaos was to acheive it's goal and fully overlap warpspace with realspace it wouldn't "die." This concept of Chaos "needing" mortals to exist is simply wrong.

Mortals form gods in the warp this much is true, but Chaos is an elemental force not just the names and faces the extra energy and minds of mortals have given to it.

Claiming mortal extinction will "kill" Chaos is like claiming that not talking to your friends today will "kill" you or that not having beneficial tides "kills" watercraft.

Sure a benefit is derived from the former condition being present but it's not actually essential for continued existance, it's just preferential.

[Corbeau]

You can definitely do this with Chaos, they aren't all mindlessly violent renegades, well everyone needs a day off

[gutsmaka]

necrons are ordered. very ordered they're like evil tau nowdays, and will even give the opponent time to get of the planet before they exterminate all intelligent life on it. necrons abide by a code of honor (albeit only if they think the opponent deserves it) which forces them to fight fairly. also, they are machines, and by nature logical and precise. infighting still occurs, but is usually resolved by honorable combat. if you want non-chaotic evil, they really are your army!

[Malkior]

I would argue that Chaos itself isn't so much the manifestation of the warp as the coagulation of the turbulence sentient emotion creates.

Before the War in Heaven between the Necrontyr and the Old Ones, the Empyrean was just that, the Empyrean. Calm, smooth, easily traversed. Nothing dangerous or spooky about it. However, add in the wars, and it gets... a little rough. Add in the first two millenia of Humanity's existence, and it gets a little... vicious. With the spread of the Black Death (two thirds of the known world's population dead in how short an order? Yeah... that'd do it), supposedly forming Nurgle, Gengis Khan (this dude... responsible for more deaths than anyone else EVER on Holy Terra) most likely being responsible for Khorne(Ya just don't get that many people killed in one lifespan and not create a Chaos God of Slaughter. Gengis Khan is Doombreed, I'd wager.), Tzeench coming in later(Just as Planned), and finally the Eldar partying (among other things) so hard it borked reality and created Slanesh. Ultimately, Chaos is the manifestation of the passions and emotions of sentience and living existence.

The Emperor himself intended to stamp out the Chaos Gods by replacing these passions with calm, collected Imperial Truth, thus starving the Chaos Gods of the vital energies upon which it thrived. Chaos is just that, Chaos. It IS the turbulence. Without the turbulence in the warp to give form, the warp is otherwise apparently very orderly, among being God-free.

As for the question of the Dark Gods being wanton destructors of Realspace? I would say not as such. My perception is that they do, in fact feed upon the collected energies of real existence and the sentient critters within it. Without them, they starve. Might not die, but then again, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die." seems to fit. Each seeks to spread their particular form of chaotic behavior throughout realspace. Nurgle, seeking to stagnate everything to the point of collapse and perpetual decay. He enjoys the fear of death and the resilience to struggle onward, persevering even against death. Tzeench enjoys knowledge and continual change and adaptation. Outsmarting people, that's Tzeench's domain. The more ambitious the schemer and the more obscure the trick used to win, the better. Khorne isn't just a bloodthirsty, skull-loving brute. He's also a patron of honorable combat for its own sake and those who wish to control their surroundings and overcome their obstacles with sheer physical dominance. Slanesh can be... well... Slanesh. Slanesh is the inward thinker, focusing on the self and your own experiences. Slanesh revels in experience for experiences sake, and anything will do. Sights, sounds, emotions, sensations, anything that causes you to -feel- something. The more extreme the better. Pleasure, pain, grief, ecstasy, beauty and horror... all experiences are to be marveled and pushed to the next level of extreme. And Slanesh delivers. Oh... boy(-ish) does Slanesh -deliver-.

My advice, fluff-wise, if you're lookin' for an army of ordered evil, is to take Chaos, and use an often forgotten aspect of one of the well-known gods. Honorable combat for its own sake from Khorne. Testing the limits of endurance and the will to live through Nurgle. Out-smarting and out thinking your opponent, using a well-planned surprise to win the day through Tzeench. Or, perhaps the simple revelry in all of existence through Slanesh, and the wonder of figuring out what everything feels like, from killing your enemy, the thrill of the hunt, to the sensation of even death itself should one of your units fall in combat.

[BaloOrk]

Necrons now come with real personalities and 100% more Electrolytes.

[aim]

My question then is this: Are there any factions that we can fairly call evil [yes, I know 40k is full of grey but work with me here, Space Marines are still written as heroes, afterall] that are conscerned not with destroying killing and burning the world, but establishing empires, hierarchies of nobility and that exist in societies or own cities?

I believe the army you are looking for are the Tau.....

Yup, the Tau, newbie posterboys of all that is good and right with the universe, clean lines, new technology, battle brothers with Eldar and Astartes alike.

But let us think about what you want for a minute... Hierarchical structures?
Check - A strict class system where your job and role in life is determined by who your parents are, with a mysterious ruling class which have an almost hypnotic effect on the others.

Concerned with building empires?
Check – Subsuming other races into their empire, destroying them if they refuse and taking their planets.

But you wanted Evil, Tau are all goody goody, right? Well, let us have a look at a couple of Tau staples;

Subverting loyal human worlds through trade and negotiation, Sterilising whole populations on planets to kill the race without firing a shot, mind controlling their member races, taking their technology as their own, using less respected member races as cannon fodder in their armies and having well respected vets turn on their own when their ethereal minder is no longer about.... Not quite as good as people like to think, they are just sneaky enough about it to seem squeaky clean....