Valkyrie - Grav Chute Insertion

[Saim-Hann Lord]

I'm a bit bemused by all of the new wording from the new rulebook.
The new rulebook says a flyer can move "flat out" during the shooting phase in place of shooting - essentially a run move like the infantry get.

This maneuvore is specifically labelled "flat out".

Disembarking from a vehicle cannot be done through the shooting phase.

Yet on pg.56 of the Imperial Guard codex is states under the Grav Chute Insertion rule: If it moves flat out the squad can disembark following particular rules.

I've summarised here but it does state the words "if the valkyrie or vendetta moves flat out" and is then following by an explanation of the unit being allowed to disembark.

If looked at the errata and no help there. Anyone care to have a go?
To me, this says I can disembark during the shooting phase.

[Brutus]

Page 7, right column, last two paragraphs of the rulebook say: Codex>General Rules of the Rulebook.
If a special rule of a model say it can disembark in the shooting phase, it can do so.

The special rule of valkyrie and vendetta say just that.
You can only go flat out in the shooting phase. There is no way to do it in the movement phase. Grave Chute Insertion works in the shooting phase.

[Saim-Hann Lord]

Ah right, I wasn't aware of the page 7 note as I was going off of my brothers rulebook who lives in a different city. I only got a brief chance to look over the book at the weekend.

Thanks very much

[Damocles8]

Ah right, I wasn't aware of the page 7 note as I was going off of my brothers rulebook who lives in a different city. I only got a brief chance to look over the book at the weekend.

Thanks very much

Not quite as simple, look at the Blood Angels and Gery Knights FAQ regarding Storm Ravens, sepcifically the Blood Angels one.....it has the same mechanic as the Valkyrie/Vendetta (allowing you to disembark when you aren't allowed to, all using the deepstrike rules), our group decided that if you move over 6" with a vehicle in the movement phase or are Zooming, you can do the grav-chute insertion, it is an intuitive application of the rule, in accordance with other FAQs, isn't game breaking, and was approved by people who do not play Grey Knights or Guard.

[SideshowLucifer]

Where as my group has ruled that it only works while in hover mode and going flat out.

[agurus1]

Pretty sure paratroopers dont ask their plane to go into hover mode before they jump out, those things are going fast. I'd say let them disembark from the flyer like the rule says, the chance that they will be destroyed if ANY member of the unit cannot be legally deployed is risk enough lol

[Mandragola]

I agree that it makes sense for grav chute insertion and the gk version to go by the skies of blood FAQ for now. The gk one especially. Hopefully the next FAQ round will fix them. I think it let's you disembark while zooming bug I'm not totally confident that it does. It just feels right. After all, lots of units get to deep strike (in the fluff) from planes at higher altitudes so I can't see why they couldn't get out lower down.

[SideshowLucifer]

I see it more like jumping out of a C130 (skimmer speed) vs jumping out of an f16 (zooming flier).
Who knows what they intended though.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

Grav chute insertion, for IG at least, is optional. If you elect to use it then the troops disembark during the shooting phase. This is an exception to p80 that does not allow passengers to disembark from a zooming flyer. If the valk/vendetta is in hover mode it can also move flat out during the shooting phase, but up to 18" instead of between 12"-24".

Either way the troops deploy the same per p56 of the IG codex.

The plane can also choose to stop or the troops can disembark before the the plane moves normally, and more sanely.

[Damocles8]

I see it more like jumping out of a C130 (skimmer speed) vs jumping out of an f16 (zooming flier).
Who knows what they intended though.

We vary greatly on what a C-130 and an F-16 do speed wise when it applies to this game, if you look at it, a C-130 can't stop short and must constantly move.

[wbravenboer]

For now we play that troops can only disembark when the flyer is in Hover Mode, but hopefully it will be solved in a FAQ.

[Sons of Lorgar]

And no, a C130 does not move at 'skimmer speed', skimmer speed is closer to a hovercraft or hydroplane speed boat, and AFAIK, a C130 needs almost that speed just to leave the runway and have a normal flight-speed around 800km/h, not even helicopters fly near that speed when level with the tree-tops.
Though there are rumors of combat pilots returning to base with foliage stuck on their wing hard-points, that's most likely an urban myth.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

But last night a Valkyrie passing over my house was overtaken by a C130. How do you explain that?

Anyway...
You can't disembark from a model moving flat out.
You can't disembark from a model zooming.
If you get to bypass the first rule due to a rule on your model, why would you assume you can bypass the second also?

[Capt._Jaelinek]

In zoom mode you can move Flat Out. It's the same description for hover mode and I think the only, albeit dangerous, way to disembark from zoom mode. At least per RAW.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

You can't disembark from a model moving flat out.
You can't disembark from a model zooming.
If you get to bypass the first rule due to a rule on your model, why would you assume you can bypass the second also?

My view is more like:

Your special rule involves disembarking when moving flat-out. It says nothing about hovering nor zooming. Why would you assume that the rule fails to function while zooming flat-out, but still works while hovering flat-out? Both states trigger the rule, while also forbidding it. It's not written as an exception to a single rule, but rather as a trigger and ability.

P.S.: "Hovering flat-out" may be the dumbest thing I've written with a straight face.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Never said anything about zooming and then going flat out. Nope. Can't touch this. I only mentioned just zooming.

[Mandragola]

Thing is, I think skies of blood is intended to let you get out of a zooming storm raven. My only evidence for this is that otherwise it's absurd. Using skies of blood to deep strike out behind a hovering storm raven that only moved 12", with the risk of scatter and death and not being allowed to charge is awful. You could have moved the storm raven 6", disembarked 6" (getting you further forward than if you jump out behind a storm raven going 12") and then charged if you wanted.

So this reading of skies of blood is that it's a way of going less fast, not being able to charge, and risking death all at once. No thanks. It can't be that.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that another FAQ is required. The grav chute insertion rule also makes no sense by any of the interpretations. So you can get out of a hovering valk that goes 0=6", or 12-24", but not 6-12"? And maybe you can get out of a zooming flyer but only if it goes super fast? Not logical at all. The reference to going flat out is clearly just a hangover from the 5th ed FAQ that they failed to update, just as they failed to update the GK storm raven at all but updated the BA one. These FAQs suck and just serve to confuse everyone.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Never said anything about zooming and then going flat out. Nope. Can't touch this. I only mentioned just zooming.

Okay, yeah, if you're Zooming but not going flat-out then you can't use it.

The reference to going flat out is clearly just a hangover from the 5th ed...

4th edition, really. There's always a little weirdness. Anyway, the "can't get out" gap doesn't bother me much; sure, in previous editions the one version started right where the other ended, but that's not necessary to "make sense". Even in real life there is (or at least used to be) a pretty big gap between where you can use a rope compared to where you can use a chute.

[Mandragola]

I think you can come to a reasonably good conclusion on what the rules say right now. You can use grav chute insertion when your valk goes flat out, in the shooting phase. I don't know if you can do it when zooming. I am sure that this is a mistake though, as they haven't updated that part of the FAQ for 6th so all it's really talking about is jumping from a valk going up to 24" in 4/5th. So now there's a different rule for going flat out, with the same name as the old one, so the old FAQ appears to apply. But that's nonsense really. The old FAQ is referring to something that doesn't happen any more.

I think that this will be fixed so that these rules let you deep strike from zooming valks and storm ravens. Until then I don't really know for sure what to do.

[Gingerwerewolf]

Thing is, I think skies of blood is intended to let you get out of a zooming storm raven. My only evidence for this is that otherwise it's absurd. Using skies of blood to deep strike out behind a hovering storm raven that only moved 12", with the risk of scatter and death and not being allowed to charge is awful. You could have moved the storm raven 6", disembarked 6" (getting you further forward than if you jump out behind a storm raven going 12") and then charged if you wanted.

So this reading of skies of blood is that it's a way of going less fast, not being able to charge, and risking death all at once. No thanks. It can't be that.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that another FAQ is required. The grav chute insertion rule also makes no sense by any of the interpretations. So you can get out of a hovering valk that goes 0=6", or 12-24", but not 6-12"? And maybe you can get out of a zooming flyer but only if it goes super fast? Not logical at all. The reference to going flat out is clearly just a hangover from the 5th ed FAQ that they failed to update, just as they failed to update the GK storm raven at all but updated the BA one. These FAQs suck and just serve to confuse everyone.

What he says. Right Up there. Thats obviously what they meant. Remember the pic of the Jump Pack Troops flying out of a Thunderhawk? Thats what the Stormraven (and the Valkyrie Grav Shoot thing) rule is all about.

Remember that Narratively the rules have to make sense now :P