TFH - My issue (Spoilers)

[Scammel]

SIGNIFICANT SPOILERS THROUGHOUT, so read no further if you don't want 'em. I'm guessing this won't apply to most though as TFH's been out a while and is pretty popular...







I recently re-read The First Heretic, mainly because it's a solid read but also because I was looking to clarify something for myself, something that I thought I might have misread or misinterpreted the first time around, but instead it's just reaffirmed my issue with the book.

It's Argel Tal's 'descent into Chaos'. Though Lorgar's journey is obviously hugely important, Tal's the main character, the humane protagonist who we associate with and thus an awful lot rests on his expriences and I feel this is where the book falls down. Here we have one of the most 'normal' of the Word Bearers, his faith tempered by, for want of a better phrase, ordinary humanity, a guy who's a far cry from a blind zealot. He's leery of the fanaticism present in his legion and maintains a healthy dislike for Erebus and Kor Phaeron. He alone establishes good relations with the Custodes to the point of becoming an outright friend with Aquillon. He's horrified by the actions of the barbaric Cadians, even more so when Lorgar effectively chooses the final sacrifice. He pretty much despises Ingethel and is rightfully wary of what the thing tries to tell him, threatening it several times with retribution.

Then Ingethel asks him to destory the geller field generator in the Emperor's lab. I know right? This thing has done pretty much nothing to earn Tal's trust, never mind the right to tell him what to do, and now it expects him to hand over humanity's greatest achievements, his own beloved father and 'uncles', to diabolical warp spawn? As a rightful servant of the Emperor, Tal readies his blades to smite the monster for its temerity...

Except it doesn't happen. Instead this totally balanced individual does the bidding of a horrific creature and dooms humanity for millenia. The above scenario where he attacks Ingethel was actually what was running through my mind before the fateful moment and I was honestly shocked that he did what he did for no apparent reason. The 'descent into Chaos' of our beloved protagonist, the most significant element of the plot, happens in a matter of moments. The rest of the book is great - Lorgar's story is handled much better I feel, especially his confused, rage-filled charge at Corax. The last moments of the Custodes I also enjoyed and is distinctly 'Abentt-esque', to draw a comparison. In fact, it's just this one thing I have an issue with, but I can't really get over it as it's such an important element. Does anyone else feel this way?

P.S. As something of a disclaimer, I'm aware Mr Dembski-Bowden occasionally makes contributions around this neck of the woods, so I'm hoping this comes across as an honest criticism and in no way rantish or misinformed and any possible insight on his part would be most welcome.

[Lupe]

I would assume that's because of the paradox of the 'kill your father in the past' variety. That particular event in time was the reason Lorgar landed on Colchis, which is why the Word Bearers recruit from that world, which is why Argel Tal has lived to be around 120 years old at that time. If Lorgar had been brought up on Terra, Argel Tal would have long since been a dead mortal when the vision was over.

So, basically, the Ingethel creature dares Argel Tal to commit suicide in order to prove his faith in the Emperor and his original ideals. Now, here's the thing. Because Argel Tal is a balanced and level headed individual, he is not a zealot, and certainly not a martyr. Therefore, he questions his own faith in the Emperor and his plans. He doesn't suddenly believe Ingethel. He begins to doubt the Emperor.

[Wazzahamma]

I think I need a warseer "like button". Thumbs up for Lupe.

[stormblade]

Argel Tal seems very, well, passive; he dislikes a lot of what he does (or WB do in general) but goes along with it anyway. I got a feeling that one of the main conflicts of the novel was the one he has with himself because he can't bring himself to disapprove of the primarch let alone disobey him, even though he knows (or maybe more like feels) that what they're doing is wrong. The fact that he chose to be aware of everything they do and its implications and consequences marks him more as masochistic than balanced. That was my impression at least.

[Lupe]

The way I see it, he's actually faced with a choice he can't win. As balanced and level headed as he is, he's dealing with creatures that obey no logic or ethics he could ever understand. He's trying to think things out, but he's focused on trying to understand what happens. He doesn't yet have the full grasp of the situation in order to make the right choice. He's actually trying to apply human logic to this whole gigantic mess he's got himself caught in, and it's hurting more than it's helping.

[Sqallum]

I agree with what you should Lupe, great post But, one question..... wasn't the gene lab just a well..vision? I was under the impression it was just a trick the daemon pulled on Argel Tal, not that Argel Tal was responsible for the scattering of the primarchs? I am probably wrong, so if you could explain that to me it would be great, thanks.

[Londinium]

I agree with what you should Lupe, great post But, one question..... wasn't the gene lab just a well..vision? I was under the impression it was just a trick the daemon pulled on Argel Tal, not that Argel Tal was responsible for the scattering of the primarchs? I am probably wrong, so if you could explain that to me it would be great, thanks.

This is how I read it aswell. Nearly all Chaos visions tend to be just that, visions, where the participants aren't able to interact in any way, random example Horus being shown the statues of the loyalist Primarchs. So I don't see why people believe that it was written as Argel Tal actually scattering the Primarchs himself. Could be wrong though. I totally agree with the rest of it though, Argel Tal was against most of the craziness happening but couldn't really be decisive about it and still latently trusted Lorgar too much. Then in the end it was just too late, he was possessed and from that moment onwards his daemon host was bound to influence and corrupt him. You see it happen in stages, at the beginning he's angry at Lorgar and rejects what is inside him but by Istvaan he's content to work in concert with the daemon and then later fight the Custodes (although their actions no doubt helped that).

[Lupe]

Well, the gene-lab was probably a trick, but we're looking at it from the outside.

Argel Tal was in there, actually living the experience. To him, it was a vivid, life-like thing, everything looked and sounded real. Heck, even the scent of oiled machines, or the ozone smell of the Geller field probably felt right. This is a whole new experience. He doesn't even consider the option that it's an illusion, since the Imperium, with all its enlightened technology can't and never could induce such realistic visions. Again, he's applying human logic to a situation that obeys none of it. If there is no conceivable way to create an illusion on such a scale, it must be the real thing (and you have to understand just how incredibly messed up he must be feeling right then, if time travel seems by far the more plausible explanation). His reaction is the natural one. Try not to alter the past. The problem is, he's not altering anything because that's just a vision...

That is, of course, unless that really was the real deal, and Argel Tal wasn't faced with a leap of faith but a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm not entirely sure which would be more messed up

[MiyamatoMusashi]

I thought it was a lot simpler than that. He was under orders to find out what Ingethel had to say. He'd already crossed the Rubicon... in for a penny, in for a pound.

[MarcusAurelius]

If Lorgar had been brought up on Terra, Argel Tal would have long since been a dead mortal when the vision was over. So, basically, the Ingethel creature dares Argel Tal to commit suicide in order to prove his faith in the Emperor and his original ideals.

Well, "suicide" is a rather odd term to use. "Preventing himself (and many others) from becoming Astartes" seems more accurate. Yes, I suppose that would be a form of sacrifice. However, I don't agree with the implication of your argument. Explanation below...

It seems that Argel Tal believes he has two choices. Help the Imperium by staying his hand or hurt the Imperium by destroying the Gellar Field. You seem to be implying that Argel Tal's decision is significantly affected by personal interest (he doesn't want to die a mortal). That's rather odd considering the nature of Argel Tal's character.

I believe his decision is largely unaffected by concern for his personal welfare, which is at most a very minor factor in his decision. The vast majority of Astartes place loyalty to a cause far above any other concerns. Argel Tal strikes me as fitting that mould. Hence, he's likely much more concerned with furthering the right cause (either Chaos or the Imperium) than with how his decision would affect him (or others) personally.

Whether Argel Tal's decision is convincing mostly depends on whether Argel Tal is more pro-Imperium/anti-Chaos or more anti-Imperium/pro-Chaos when making his choice. Scammel is probably perplexed because Argel Tal seems to be rather disgusted by Chaos when he makes a decision clearly favouring Chaos (allowing Chaos to influence the primarchs very early in their development). Perhaps he has simply adopted Lorgar's allegiance as his own (despite his personal misgivings)?

[MvS]

Also, at the point of Tal's decision he doesn't know all the ramifications of it.

All he knows is that by doing what he does the Primarchs end up doing what they have already done up until that point. He doesn't know that this will lead to him getting possessed, or Lorgar rebelling against the Emperor completely and utterly, or that half the Imperium will become warped slaves to Chaos.

All he has at the point of his sword thrust are words from Ingethel and a promise to Lorgar to find the truth. He doesn't actually do anything that hasn't, in another sense, already been done. So he perhaps still sees the ramifications of his actions as a rebellion, but a rebellion within limits. He doesn't at all comprehend the scale of his actions, and nor could he at that point.

[Scammel]

Scammel is probably perplexed because Argel Tal seems to be rather disgusted by Chaos when he makes a decision clearly favouring Chaos (allowing Chaos to influence the primarchs very early in their development).

Pretty much. Those suggesting that Tal's decision was based on a combination of ignorance, confusion and a default setting of loyalty to Lorgar have put forward the most convincing argument for me, but I still don't think it's one that holds a huge degree of water. Though Tal might not have appreciated the full implications of what he was doing, he's seen Ingethel for the monster it is - this thing makes people vomit and drives drives them insane to the point of murdering their fellows simply through its presence. He surely can't be under the impression that this creature and its masters are anything other than utterly malevolent and now they're asking to be let into the most important, possibly 'holy' location in the Imperium.